subgenius wrote:How so? I hold the Priesthood but am unable to just confer it upon anyone of my choosing.
I believe you will discover what the fullness of the priesthood is and how these "4" - while performing ministerial duties, did not possess the necessary keys...and therefore restoration became necessary.
Just as the quorum of the 12 hold keys as a quorum we see Peter, James, and John being commissioned...etc....yet those keys are unable to be exercised solo. Nevertheless, the real barrier was the emergence of the wickedness among mankind in general....etc..
it also seems necessary to realize that the 3 nephi and John are moved only to immortality through the resurrection. Once again, we witness you critics pick-and-choose when he wants to interpret scriptures literally or not.
Please cite chapter and verse where this is so, or any General Authority that has given this as the correct scenario. (That the KEYS were taken from them personally to act). I think you will search in vain, therefore this is just speculation. In fact Mormon Scripture directly contradicts this scenario,
5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater awork yet among men than what he has before done.
6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a aministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be bheirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.
7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.
Where were the keys taken from John & the Nephites? Please show us where. In fact, Mormon "Apostles", who are "prophets, seers & revelators", have said,
The Lord told the brethren once concerning the Revelator John, "If I will that he tarry til I come, what is that to thee?" The last that we hear of John's persecutors is that they put him into a caldron of boiling oil, but he came out unhurt—as miraculous as when the Hebrew children went into the fiery furnace. And that John is ministering to the house of Israel in distant portions of the earth, or wherever they are; and a record is going to come from them to us—the same as the Book of Mormon and the Bible have come to us, and they three shall become one. (Franklin D. Richards, Brian Stuy, Collected Discourses Vol.3, p. 30)
But then contradict themselves,
Jesus Christ was crucified, the Apostles were put to death, and most every man who bore the Priesthood was slain, excepting John the Revelator. The Lord had ordained him to live, and he did not die, but remains today upon the face of the earth, in fulfilment of the promises of God to him. But in that day they had not the privilege of building the Zion of God or the Kingdom of God. It was not a dispensation prepared for that. These men laid down their lives, and the judgments of God overtook the Jewish nation, in fulfilment of the predictions of the Savior and the Prophets. Moses told them in his day, "And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee." All this came to pass, and the kingdom was taken from the earth, the holy Priesthood was taken up to God, who gave it, and the Church went into the wilderness, and there remained until the day set for its restoration to the world. (Wilford Woodruff, Brian Stuy, Collected Discourses Vol.3, p. 155).
So how could the "holy priesthood" be taken up to God who gave it, when Jesus himself promised John he would have the keys "until I come". In fact, this should all be wrapped up, according to Wilford Woodruff, who spoke about John in a later discourse,
I feel to thank God that I have lived as long as I have, and to see as much as I have in fulfillment of the words of the Prophet of God. His days were few. The lives of great men have been strange. The idea of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, only laboring three years and a half in the ministry and then He was put to death! His Apostles, too, were put to death, excepting John the Revelator, and they would have killed him if they could have done so. He lived because God wanted him to live. We live in the last dispensation and in the midst of the great work that all the Patriarchs and Prophets since God made the world have spoken of. Afflictions and tribulations await the world. The destroying angels have got their sharp sickles in their hands, and they are going to reap the earth. Everything that has been spoken by the prophets under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost will come to pass in the generation in which we live. Do not forget it. We are here to fulfill these principles. (Wilford Woodruff, Conference Report, April 1898, p.90).
Then you have more contradiction:
The Nephite Apostles and John the Revelator, who are laboring among the people, at times perhaps in this land. and possibly among the tribes of Israel, will not baptize and lay hands upon people for the gift of the Holy Ghost who are within the purview of this Church. If they should do such a thing, it would be understood by the Prophet who stands at the head of this Church. Joseph Smith received all the keys that pertain to this dispensation; and although the Bible says that John the Revelator has a mission to gather the ten tribes of Israel, I desire to say that it will be done under the order of the Priesthood established in this Church and by the keys that were given to the Prophet Joseph Smith; for it belongs to this dispensation, and it will be done under the direction of whoever stands at the head of the Church at the time. (Matthias F. Cowley, Conference Report, October 1901, p.19)
But that is not what D&C 7 says. John had the keys, and he was running around long before there was a "prophet" that had "purview". So where are the "ten tribes"? On a rock circling the earth? Under the North Pole? This stuff is just ridiculous. How do they know? They had it revealed to them by the Holy Ghost!
From the time of John the Revelator up to 1820, we affirm, we make the positive declaration, we are convinced in our hearts and souls, for we have had it revealed unto us by the power of the Holy Ghost, that there was no organized Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth, with the authority of the priesthood to take a man down into the water and baptize him, that his sins might be remitted, or to lay hands upon his head and confirm him a member, and confer upon him the gift of the Holy Ghost. So that this Church stands alone with respect to that. (Anthony W. Ivans, Conference Report, April 1928, p.87).
But that is not what D&C 7 says. Wilford Woodruff even preached that John spoke of 666 "false" Sects that must come into existence by way of his prophecy...
According to the vision of John the Revelator, there are to be "six hundred, threescore and six" false sects of religion: how many of these already exist is a matter of dispute among theologists, but I suppose that the number is nearly complete. Let me now ask if you think things look or indicate that these contending creeds are all of God. It is certainly not like the order carried out in the days of Christ and his Apostles. It is much more like the confusion of the Pharisees, Essenes, Herodians, Sadducees and Stoics, for they had different creeds, principles and notions by which they were governed, and it is just so now with the sectarian world. It is composed of every sect and party that profess religion upon the face of the earth. But the honest in heart will be gathered out of all these creeds and systems and be brought home to Zion. (Journal of Discourses Vol. 10, p.13).
Only the dishonest would be part of the "sectarian world". Right. Orson Pratt had a unique perspective on this. He said,
Was Aaron called in any other way but by new revelation through the prophet Moses? He was not. Can any man receive the priesthood only by revelation? Can he receive his calling in any way wherein God does not communicate himself by new revelation from Heaven? I answer no, no. No man Call assume the priesthood, and the power thereof, and officiate therein, unless he be called as this man of God was called in the days of Moses.
Admit then that the canon of scripture was closed When John the Revelator received his gospel, after he returned from the Isle of Patmos, and that when the apostles passed from the earth communication between earth and Heaven was closed, who could be their successors? No individual could hold the office or receive it unless God sent new revelation from Heaven, pointing out by name the individual upon whom the authority and calling to preach and administer in His name should rest. (Journal of Discourses Vol. 12, p.248)
Pratt just left John out completely. Now there's ingenuity. John Taylor simply says that John just gave up...
John the Revelator speaks of a time when "an angel should fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach to those who dwell on the face of the earth, and to every nation, kindred, tongue and people, crying with a loud voice, Fear God and give glory to him, for the hour of his judgment is come." Who was it that saw this? Why John, on the Isle of Patmos. But did'New Testament he have the Gospel? Yes. But he saw that a certain power would arise that would make war against the Saints and overcome them, that they should be given into the hands of this power to a certain time. ( now.
Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.365).
Then, according to Orson Pratt who remembers to add John back into the equation says that John still had the keys, but was at the North Pole...
Having spoken concerning the gathering of the ten tribes, I will refer again to their Prophets. "Their Prophets shall hear his voice." Do not think that we are the only people who will have Prophets. God is determined to raise up Prophets among that people, but he will not bestow upon them all the fulness of the blessings of the Priesthood. The fulness will be reserved to be given to them after they come to Zion. But Prophets will be among them while in the north, and a portion of the Priesthood will be there; and John the Revelator will be there, teaching, instructing and preparing them for this great work; forté him were given the keys for the gathering of Israel, at the time when he ate that little book while on the Isle of Patmos. At that time, John was a very old man; but the Lord told him [p.26] that he must yet prophesy before many kingdoms, and nations, and peoples, and tongues, and he has got that mission to perform, and in the last days the spirit and power of Elias will attend his administrations among these ten tribes, and he will assist in preparing them to return to this land. Whether missionaries will be sent from Zion to hunt up these dispersed tribes in the north I do not know; but one thing I do know, from that which is reported by those who have tried to find a passage to the pole, that there is a warmer country off there, and that birds of passage go north to find a warmer climate. That I know from the writings of intelligent men who have been on voyages of discovery. And I know, furthermore, that they have crossed by means of dogs and sledges a certain portion of this great band of ice and have come to an open sea, which proves that there is a warmer country further north. There is a tract of country around the pole, some seven or eight hundred miles in diameter, that no man among the nations. that we are acquainted with, has ever explored. But how much of that land may be fit for habitation I am not prepared to say, for I do not know. I know it would be a very easy matter for the Lord God, by the aid of great mountain ranges encircling them around about, to produce a band of ice which would prevent other nations and people very easily reaching them. I also know that it would be a very easy matter for the Lord God to cause deep and extensive valleys, very deep in comparison with high ranges of mountains around them, where the temperature would be comparatively mild, the same as in these mountains here. We see all the rigors of an arctic winter on our eastern ranges of mountains, while at the same time here are deep valleys in which there is a comparatively warm climate, which makes me think of that which was spoken by the mouth of Isaiah the Prophet in referring to the latter-day work. He says that "when it shall hail, Coming down upon the forests, the city shall be low in a low place," where the climate is warm. (Journal of Discourses Vol. 18, p.25-6)
I think we can give this one to science and say that Orson was anything but "inspired". Mormon "prophets, seers & revelators"... ya gotta love em.. they sure are entertaining. Like a good episode of Dr. Who. But I saved the best for last, George Q. Cannon who said,
If every man of the Twelve but one were slain, the one remaining would have the right to organize a First Presidency of the Church, to choose Twelve Apostles, and to organize the Church in its fulness and power, and to preside over it. And his acts would be accepted of the Lord, and binding upon the people. This is the authority of the Apostleship. If every Apostle anciently had been slain but John the Revelator, as they all were, and there had been faith and men enough left, he would have had the right to ordain other Apostles, and set in order the entire Church, and carry forward the work as the Lord should dictate it. So in our day. (Journal of Discourses Vol. 19, p.235)
So there you have it. Total mayhem. But this is par for the course. But one thing is certain, the D&C and Cannon both affirm that John had the keys... but I guess (according to Cannon) he just couldn't find ONE PERSON in 1800 years that had "faith". Shame, that. God waited for Jo to come along with his peepstone and dreams of Capt' Kidd's treasure....