problems with God

[_Zadok]

When supplying a "CFR" you can supply someone else's opinion, and that is OK, but your own opinion doesn't count?

welcome to the internet!

I guess maybe the Internet WAS invented by Al Gore.

[_Dantana]

I guess maybe the Internet WAS invented by Al Gore.

[Guest]

The LAW of Moses spelled out GOD to Israel. Their example of GOD made them representatives of the GOD they worshipped. Now, if they did what God told them to do, they would be happy, content, and have no fear of invasion or enemies. They would be protected. If they disobeyed and worshipped other gods, they would be unhappy, discontented, and allowed to attacked, invaded, and enslaved.

Now, if the one thing causes another, then there must be a real force to reconnoiter with. If a person or a nation can do whatever it wants and there are no repercussions, then there is no force to regard. Atheists claim that there is no GOD. HOWEVER, they totally ignore the fact that there appear to manifest repercussions for flying in the face of GOD.

I note individuals, rulers, states, countries, and continents that have chosen to disregard GOD. They may for a time appear to be "lucky." But very soon things will become very difficult and destructive. Economies collapse, large groups of people lose work or the ability to do so. Destitution follows, as even nature itself actually appears to seek to make life miserable. Temperatures get worse, earthquakes are most violent, terrible storms are prevalent, pestilence abounds, wars are continuous, and there seems no adequate answer. This is because there is no other more reasonable answer above that of a complex interactive GOD.

Nothing happens without due cause. If things existed as atheists rationalize it, then it should not matter how anyone behaved or what anyone did. Achievements would become meaningless because life would exist indifferent to how one lived. There would be only random unrelated events. The study of history would not be a pursuit, because events would exhibit no track record. The child who was belligerent would be just as likely to live to a ripe old age as any "godly" person. The general command for children to obey their parents would feature no evidence of cause and a effect.

Job was tested so that the world could take note, that believers are indeed protected and when they seemingly have problems --- they learn valuable eternal lessons. They raise far above the despair of those who imagine that their only hope is their own achievements and abilities. The Job's of this age overcome all obstacles thrown at them because they witness GOD's intervention and help. They learn to live for the moment leaning on divine help and guidance.

[_DrW]

Atheism is even more illogical than strict Orthodox Theism.
Think about it, DrW... Pretending to know ALL possible descriptions/qualities of all possible deities is making you out to be omniscient! Atheism is a religion of faith - just illogical, misunderstood denial of others' faiths.

As is the case with most Christian apologetics, you are left to make up your own definitions for easily understood terms and to put forth straw man assertions.

I am not denying your faith. You clearly have faith. I am simply saying that your faith is unfounded belief, and is no more valid than the unfounded belief that humankind has had in the thousands of other gods they have imagined throughout history.

The universe works perfectly well without any of mankind's gods, and can be best understood if none of these gods are considered.

Actually, studies show that religious or spiritual belief and religious community support have statistically shown to have a positive effect on physical healing.

Agreed that the community support provided by some religions can be of value in maintaining health and well being. So can non-religious communities, families and friends.

Where religion losses out is when the fundamentalists are considered, and there are lots of them. Fundamentalist practices, whether Christian or Muslim, give rise to ignorance, poverty and a myriad of associated psychological, sociological and medical problems. Think of the FLDS and the ruined lives of their lost boys, or the millions of wrecked lives of females left in the wake of fundamentalist Muslim sects such as the Wahhabis.

Also, the subconscious is mysterious but powerful - it governs most of what we think, feel & do.
The subconscious needs a bridge to tap into faith for its positive effects (like placebo effect)... but if your ego gets in the way, it is useless, so the best way most of humanity has discovered for tapping into our ultimate powerful source, is to believe in some type of higher power.

This statement may make sense to you, but it certainly does not make sense to me. It is another naked assertion based on your unfounded belief.

You seem to be claiming that the subconscious is the "ultimate power source". What evidence do you have for this kind of statement? What does "ultimate power source" even mean? Sounds like new age nonsense to me.

Nope. Faith and e-motion are similar - not exactly pure logic, but also intuitively prove to be correct. If you take out the emotional part of the brain - one is unable to make any decision - it used to happen when lobotomy's were common.

Again, there seems to be some confusion here. Faith is unfounded belief. Emotion is defined as a mental state that arises spontaneously rather than through conscious effort. So I don't see the connection. If you are defining emotion as a mental state arrived at without reason, or in contrast to reason, then I can see your point.

It should be no surprise that severing certain neuronal connections in the brain makes decisions difficult. I don't see that this has anything to do with unfounded belief, or that it should be considered as evidence favoring a religionist worldview.

I agree partially - that a substantial amount of mental illness cases may be rooted in misinterpretations of Christian/Judaic doctrine (I read that in an LDS book). Still, the good outweighs the bad, statistically.

Consider the millions of people whose lives have been destroyed in just the last decade in the Middle East because of differences in religious belief, and tell me again how the good outweighs the bad.

Morality cannot be governed - religion is required -

What is the purpose of religion not to govern morality?

-- most people think, feel & act (compulsively) like children - so they need an authority to keep them choosing the right. Ideally, people would do right because they saw it best, even if it was less pleasurable, but the reality doesn't play that out.

You have a pretty low opinion of humankind, don't you? If you are going to argue that people need religious authority to keep them choosing the right, how do you account for the great economic and social success that is secular western Europe?

How can anyone be trusted? As Scott Peck wrote, everyone has a religion - just many haven't actually thought through how subjective their beliefs are. Nobody is capable of objective thinking - it's all subjective! Actually, I also get frustrated with ignorant thinking - but it's not limited to LDS myths - it's also liberal and atheism/nihilist myths. Few really think for themselves - they turn to herd mentalities - most LDS on here it seems, have gone from LDS cult to liberal cult - because they can't stand the sense of lonliness and unsurety of not adhering to a set ideology.

This seems like a description of the world according to Amore. I can only tell you that it is not shared by myself or by anyone I know. The folks I work and associate with with on a day to day basis are mainly scientists and engineers who have learned to develop their worldview based on evidence.

You seem to place relatively little value on facts in evidence. Given that I can think of little in the way of evidence that would support your descriptions and assertions here, and since you have provided none, I will thank you for your response and leave it at that.

[_LittleNipper]

Atheism is even more illogical than strict Orthodox Theism.
Think about it, DrW... Pretending to know ALL possible descriptions/qualities of all possible deities is making you out to be omniscient! Atheism is a religion of faith - just illogical, misunderstood denial of others' faiths.

As is the case with most Christian apologetics, you are left to make up your own definitions for easily understood terms and to put forth straw man assertions.

I am not denying your faith. You clearly have faith. I am simply saying that your faith is unfounded belief, and is no more valid than the unfounded belief that humankind has had in the thousands of other gods they have imagined throughout history.

The universe works perfectly well without any of mankind's gods, and can be best understood if none of these gods are considered.

Actually, studies show that religious or spiritual belief and religious community support have statistically shown to have a positive effect on physical healing.

Agreed that the community support provided by some religions can be of value in maintaining health and well being. So can non-religious communities, families and friends.

Where religion losses out is when the fundamentalists are considered, and there are lots of them. Fundamentalist practices, whether Christian or Muslim, give rise to ignorance, poverty and a myriad of associated psychological, sociological and medical problems. Think of the FLDS and the ruined lives of their lost boys, or the millions of wrecked lives of females left in the wake of fundamentalist Muslim sects such as the Wahhabis.

Also, the subconscious is mysterious but powerful - it governs most of what we think, feel & do.
The subconscious needs a bridge to tap into faith for its positive effects (like placebo effect)... but if your ego gets in the way, it is useless, so the best way most of humanity has discovered for tapping into our ultimate powerful source, is to believe in some type of higher power.

This statement may make sense to you, but it certainly does not make sense to me. It is another naked assertion based on your unfounded belief.

You seem to be claiming that the subconscious is the "ultimate power source". What evidence do you have for this kind of statement? What does "ultimate power source" even mean? Sounds like new age nonsense to me.

Nope. Faith and e-motion are similar - not exactly pure logic, but also intuitively prove to be correct. If you take out the emotional part of the brain - one is unable to make any decision - it used to happen when lobotomy's were common.

Again, there seems to be some confusion here. Faith is unfounded belief. Emotion is defined as a mental state that arises spontaneously rather than through conscious effort. So I don't see the connection. If you are defining emotion as a mental state arrived at without reason, or in contrast to reason, then I can see your point.

It should be no surprise that severing certain neuronal connections in the brain makes decisions difficult. I don't see that this has anything to do with unfounded belief, or that it should be considered as evidence favoring a religionist worldview.

I agree partially - that a substantial amount of mental illness cases may be rooted in misinterpretations of Christian/Judaic doctrine (I read that in an LDS book). Still, the good outweighs the bad, statistically.

Consider the millions of people whose lives have been destroyed in just the last decade in the Middle East because of differences in religious belief, and tell me again how the good outweighs the bad.

Morality cannot be governed - religion is required -

What is the purpose of religion not to govern morality?

-- most people think, feel & act (compulsively) like children - so they need an authority to keep them choosing the right. Ideally, people would do right because they saw it best, even if it was less pleasurable, but the reality doesn't play that out.

You have a pretty low opinion of humankind, don't you? If you are going to argue that people need religious authority to keep them choosing the right, how do you account for the great economic and social success that is secular western Europe?

How can anyone be trusted? As Scott Peck wrote, everyone has a religion - just many haven't actually thought through how subjective their beliefs are. Nobody is capable of objective thinking - it's all subjective! Actually, I also get frustrated with ignorant thinking - but it's not limited to LDS myths - it's also liberal and atheism/nihilist myths. Few really think for themselves - they turn to herd mentalities - most LDS on here it seems, have gone from LDS cult to liberal cult - because they can't stand the sense of lonliness and unsurety of not adhering to a set ideology.

This seems like a description of the world according to Amore. I can only tell you that it is not shared by myself or by anyone I know. The folks I work and associate with with on a day to day basis are mainly scientists and engineers who have learned to develop their worldview based on evidence.

You seem to place relatively little value on facts in evidence. Given that I can think of little in the way of evidence that would support your descriptions and assertions here, and since you have provided none, I will thank you for your response and leave it at that.

The seemingly best reason for the worship of God is to ascertain how exactly to be saved. Christianity isn't about being good to go to heaven. Being good is the response of a thankfully saved person to a personality change accomplished by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

[_DrW]

The seemingly best reason for the worship of God is to ascertain how exactly to be saved. Christianity isn't about being good to go to heaven. Being good is the response of a thankfully saved person to a personality change accomplished by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

If the indwelling of the holy spirit results in the personalities of the majority of religionists with whom I am familiar, I'll pass.

In fact, I count myself very fortunate not to be so infected.

[_Zadok]

The seemingly best reason for the worship of God is to ascertain how exactly to be saved. Christianity isn't about being good to go to heaven. Being good is the response of a thankfully saved person to a personality change accomplished by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Saved...I would like to be saved. Saved from what?

If mankind is God's 'greatest' creation, (and I find it just a little suspicious that we have given ourselves that moniker), then I am disappointed in God's communication department. I would think that God would have done a better job of building some kind of blue-tooth link between himself and his 'greatest' creation. Why does God, the all powerful have to rely on other men, to tell me what to do? How can he tell them, but not tell me?

[_LittleNipper]

The seemingly best reason for the worship of God is to ascertain how exactly to be saved. Christianity isn't about being good to go to heaven. Being good is the response of a thankfully saved person to a personality change accomplished by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

If the indwelling of the holy spirit results in the personalities of the majority of religionists with whom I am familiar, I'll pass.

In fact, I count myself very fortunate not to be so infected.

Galatians 5:19-23 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live for this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things the Law is not.

Matthew 7:13 Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it.
Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

[_LittleNipper]

The seemingly best reason for the worship of God is to ascertain how exactly to be saved. Christianity isn't about being good to go to heaven. Being good is the response of a thankfully saved person to a personality change accomplished by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Saved...I would like to be saved. Saved from what?

If mankind is God's 'greatest' creation, (and I find it just a little suspicious that we have given ourselves that moniker), then I am disappointed in God's communication department. I would think that God would have done a better job of building some kind of blue-tooth link between himself and his 'greatest' creation. Why does God, the all powerful have to rely on other men, to tell me what to do? How can he tell them, but not tell me?

God has given to man His WORD. Understanding of the Holy Word comes from the Holy Spirit to those who request it. No one needs to depend on the interpretations from another. That was the key that brought the Roman Catholic church to the REFORMATION and out of controlled/manipulated doctrinal darkness. This is why "Protestantism" stressed educating people to read, and the printing press made the Word more accessible to the public at large. This would directly lead to The Great Awakening.

[_Zadok]

Tragically, I can not make the leap from GOD, to God's word. It just seems to me that "God's word" is a bunch of writings from guys with hidden agendas.