The CCC wrote:I don't believe I've engaged in hand-waving. The facts remain that credible evidence has been presented that MHM and Bountiful exist. An educated guess is an interesting possibility, but I remain unconvinced. Because of two factors. (1)Thorough exploration by Europeans was still some ways off, and the Bedouins weren't exactly friendly to non-Muslims. (2) There is no indication that Joseph Smith was even aware of those locations. IE; Even his wife acknowledge that he didn't know Jerusalem was a walled city.
A likely route has been proposed, explored, and largely substantiates the description proffered in the Book of Mormon. There are spurs in the Frankincense Trail that come close to the coast, but were largely unknown to the West in the 1820's. Going Eastwards from NHM leads directly overland to Bountiful. There is no time frame mentioned in the Book of Mormon for the Lehites journey in the wilderness, but estimates vary for 3 to 7 years. More than enough time for such a journey even by the crude means of travel in that day.
Actually, Nephi says they traveled for eight years before reaching Bountiful. Is there any location on the entire coast of the Arabian Peninsula that they could not have reached in eight years of travel?
I'm not familiar with that verse. Please point it out.
No there isn't. But it also must be remembered that they stopped, hunted game, and planted crops along the way.
If we assume travel at 4 miles an hour for five hours a day, with weekends off for resting, they could have travelled 100 miles a week. That's 5,000 miles a year, assuming they got Christmas holidays. 8 years - 40,000 miles. If all they did was reach some place on the Arabian peninsula then they must have done some serious wandering around in circles. Or alternatively, the author was making stuff up.[/quote]
The CCC wrote:That's some mighty big assumptions there.
Yes, but no more then apologetic assumptions with bountiful and much less then assumptions made with NHM, or are you going to provide evidence of the inscription NHM being used as a place name as has been asked many times now.
Res Ipsa wrote: Actually, Nephi says they traveled for eight years before reaching Bountiful. Is there any location on the entire coast of the Arabian Peninsula that they could not have reached in eight years of travel?
CCC wrote:I'm not familiar with that verse. Please point it out.
No there isn't. But it also must be remembered that they stopped, hunted game, and planted crops along the way.
1 Nephi 17:4
4 And we did sojourn for the space of many years, yea, even eight years in the wilderness.
From my reading of 1 Nephi, we have Lehi's party traveling roughly S.S.E along the west coast of the peninsula for an undetermined period of time ("many days") and then easterly for an undetermined period of time, for a total of eight years. Depending on what the book means by "many days," I think it's fair to conclude that "Bountiful" could be located anywhere along the coasts of modern Yemen, Oman, or the UAE. Would you agree? Remember, at this point, we are only looking at the text of the Book of Mormon and a modern map. We'll look at more as we go.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
If we assume travel at 4 miles an hour for five hours a day, with weekends off for resting, they could have travelled 100 miles a week. That's 5,000 miles a year, assuming they got Christmas holidays. 8 years - 40,000 miles. If all they did was reach some place on the Arabian peninsula then they must have done some serious wandering around in circles. Or alternatively, the author was making stuff up.
That's some mighty big assumptions there.
Okay, halve it. Does it look any more credible?
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
The CCC wrote:That's some mighty big assumptions there.
Yes, but no more then apologetic assumptions with bountiful and much less then assumptions made with NHM, or are you going to provide evidence of the inscription NHM being used as a place name as has been asked many times now.
Go fish.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
The CCC wrote: It took 1 year to go from Omaha Beach to Berlin. That was with tanks and airplanes. You still have too many assumptions for a credible argument.
Seriously? Do you really think it is a fair comparison of a small group traveling through the wilderness, to a large army fighting with another large army to gain ground?
Themis wrote:Yes, but no more then apologetic assumptions with bountiful and much less then assumptions made with NHM, or are you going to provide evidence of the inscription NHM being used as a place name as has been asked many times now.
Go fish.
LOL I don't expect CCC to contribute anymore to what could have been a good discussion of evidence. I suspect with NHM he may realize he grossly over estimated it's quality as evidence for the Book of Mormon location Nahom, but it is hard for all of us to admit to being wrong.
A small group of people traveling in the wilderness of Saudi Arabia of 600 BCE would have the same problems a large army of today, relatively speaking. Opposition from hostile forces, lack of supply lines, equipment malfunction, need for at least temporary sanctuary.
