Albion wrote:John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the only Son..." Not Abraham, not Isaac or Jacob, not Moses, not Joseph Smith, and certainly not Tobin.
Exodus 33:11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Well it's not a surprise the Bible is not consistent, but perhaps you could say that since Jesus for many is supposed to be the God of the Old Testament, that no one at that point had seen God the father.
I suppose Moses saw God saw God with his spiritual eyes...pretty much how the "witnesses" to the Book of Mormon saw the gold plates. Face to face is a figurative term much as descriptions of God having wings is figurative. Man in his mortal state could not abide in the presence of God, so far and holy is God removed from mere mortals.
From the same chapter of Exodus verses 19-20 "And the Lord said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. BUT," he said, "YOU CANNOT SEE MY FACE, FOR NO ONE MAY SEE ME AND LIVE." If Moses spoke to God "face to face" as you claim he would have seen God's face already so God's response that to look upon it would mean death would be meaningless.
The use of the phrase "face to face" is figurative only and denotes the special relationship Moses had with God and the directness of God's revelations to him...directly spoken rather than through visions and dreams. As John correctly stated...no one except the Son has seen the Father.
Albion wrote:From the same chapter of Exodus verses 19-20 "And the Lord said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. BUT," he said, "YOU CANNOT SEE MY FACE, FOR NO ONE MAY SEE ME AND LIVE." If Moses spoke to God "face to face" as you claim he would have seen God's face already so God's response that to look upon it would mean death would be meaningless.
The use of the phrase "face to face" is figurative only and denotes the special relationship Moses had with God and the directness of God's revelations to him...directly spoken rather than through visions and dreams. As John correctly stated...no one except the Son has seen the Father.
- Well, i suppose i figuratively saw God too. Happy now?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
just in case its unclear...Gunnar is proposing that "self-evident" is a "choice".
It is abundantly clear to me, if not to you, that there are numerous mutually contradictory opinions about what is or is not "self-evident." You can't reasonably deny that there is or can be a strong element of "choice" in determining whether or not something is "self-evident", and that one can be mistaken about something being "self-evident." Too often, the claim that something is "self-evident" is merely a cop out that enables one to avoid having to admit to oneself or others that one's claims really have no rational or evidentiary basis. I submit to you that more often than not, the claim that something is "self-evident" is evidence (but not necessarily conlusive proof) that the claimant is on the losing side of the argument, but is unwilling to admit it. It is almost always a very weak argument!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Tobin wrote: - Well, i suppose i figuratively saw God too. Happy now?
I have to commend you on that one, Tobin! That possibly the most reasonable thing I ever saw you write!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
jo1952 wrote:Ultimately what DOES matter is our love for one another which determines whether or not we truly love God. In fact, for those who do not believe in God, if they truly love others, then as far as God is concerned, that person also loves Him. For those who claim to love God but do not love others, then their claim to love God is a lie. Also, if we have done to even the least of mankind, we have also done it to God.
Jo, I have to commend you again. This is one of the several truly wise and compassionate things you have said. If there really is a truly wise and loving God that cares about us, what else can we mere mortals do that could possibly please him? This is reminiscent, of course, of King Benjamin's speech in the Book of Mormon. This is one of the passages of that book that even I substantially endorse and admire!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
This is how I currently understand what is being discussed.
A transformation needs to take place in a body of flesh before it can withstand the Light which emanates from Christ. Otherwise a body of flesh would burn and melt in His presence....though the spirit would still live. Likewise, depending upon when God allows Himself to be seen, He is able to control what exactly someone in the flesh sees. In the instance with Moses, the Lord is going to reveal ALL....not just a “slimmed” down version of Himself. When revealing ALL that He is, it is His face through which all Light can be seen. In granting Moses' desire, God was giving Moses exactly what Moses had asked for....to be able to see God in ALL of His Glory; not a modified version. In order to protect Moses during the granting of his wish, God placed Moses in a rock clift and covered Moses with His Hand as His full Glory passed by. Moses then only got to see the back of God after God removed His Hand. To be able to see ALL of His Glory while in the flesh was a great gift which God gave to Moses; even though he was only allowed to see God's back so that he could still live.
When Jesus walked in His body of flesh, He could be seen by others face to face because His flesh body was in the same state of being as man's body was in its flesh body.
When Peter, James and John witnessed the Transfiguration of Jesus, they saw Him in His Vision form which was still less than in His Full Glory Form.
When anyone sees God in the Kingdom of God, they are able to withstand His presence because they are either in their spirit being, have been resurrected and clothed with a "glorified" body (which is different from the condition of their body of flesh), or, if they were taken like Enoch or Elijah, some type of transformation had to have taken place since their bodies of flesh had not yet died. Enoch and Elijah could not be withheld from God's presence because they had received All Truth through their faith and obedience and seeking. Their spirits had been born of the Spirit - had become fully awakened. Thus, they were able to see the Kingdom of God. If we reach this place in our journey while we are in a body of flesh, something spiritual transpires with our body which allows both the body and the spirit to be able to withstand being in the presence of God. Jesus is the Light of the world. We are taught that we are also the Light of the world. Our spirit, as it is fully awakened, will also emanate such brilliant Light that others will not be able to withstand our presence unless one of these afore-mentioned conditions have taken place. We are to let our Light shine so that others can see and be drawn to it.
I would offer it is through spiritual awakening actually transpiring which allows those who are truly walking in the Spirit while they are still in their body of flesh, to be recognized by others who are also walking in the Spirit while still in their body of flesh. I believe this is also how, in the end times, those who are walking in the Spirit will be spared from the plagues and destruction which will be sent down upon the inhabitants of the earth. They will only be susceptible to physical suffering and physical death being meted out by the adversary and his followers.
At any rate, the Bible is not giving conflicting accounts. Rather it is teaching that there are various ways to see God which depend upon not only where we are in our spiritual awakening; but also depending upon how much of Himself God is revealing to an individual. Therefore, they are all True; it is the circumstances which are different.
Gunnar wrote:Jo, I have to commend you again. This is one of the several truly wise and compassionate things you have said.
Hello Gunnar!
Thank you, again. If you continue this, I am going to ask you to help me pay for my kleenex supply!
Edited to add: I cannot take credit for this understanding; I am only the messenger of what is being taught.
If there really is a truly wise and loving God that cares about us, what else can we mere mortals do that could possibly please him? This is reminiscent, of course, of King Benjamin's speech in the Book of Mormon. This is one of the passages of that book that even I substantially endorse and admire!
Indeed! And I love that speech as well!
Blessings and love,
jo
Last edited by Guest on Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Well, i suppose i figuratively saw God too. Happy now?
That possibly the most reasonable thing I ever saw you write!