The Bottom Line

[_Albion]

Of course, the reality is that the only real way to demonstrate love for God is to love those whom God loves and sent his son to die for...which is everyone. In so doing we keep the higher law. But there are various types of love and sometimes love has to be expressed in firmness when error is promoted as truth.

[_Drifting]

From the same chapter of Exodus verses 19-20 "And the Lord said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. BUT," he said, "YOU CANNOT SEE MY FACE, FOR NO ONE MAY SEE ME AND LIVE." If Moses spoke to God "face to face" as you claim he would have seen God's face already so God's response that to look upon it would mean death would be meaningless.

The use of the phrase "face to face" is figurative only and denotes the special relationship Moses had with God and the directness of God's revelations to him...directly spoken rather than through visions and dreams. As John correctly stated...no one except the Son has seen the Father.

- Well, i suppose i figuratively saw God too. Happy now?

Were you a worthy Priesthood holder when you saw God?

[_SteelHead]

He was protected by fore-ordination as was Joseph Smith?

[Guest]

I really like this comment by Sethbag from the Laban's death defies logic and reality thread in the Terrestrial forum. He said it better than I have so far:

Sock Puppet's exchange with Gordon illustrates perfectly why the LDS epistemology of "Examine your feelings, Luke - you know it to be true!" is so bogus.

If the Holy Ghost is speaking through feelings, and the Devil is speaking through feelings, and as human beings we also have feelings as just a normal part of our lives, then what the believer is saying is that they can accurately analyze their feelings and judge the nature of their feelings. They can come to a 100% confidence that, given any particular spiritual-communication-through-feelings episode, they are accurately judging the nature of their response, and thus can claim to know truth.

And they claim they can do this despite the multitude of forces militating against it. I'm talking about cognitive biases like confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance strategies, the desire to justify one's actions or beliefs, save face, etc. They also claim that they can do this despite the evidence from large numbers of people claiming they do this who apparently are wrong about a lot of what they think has been "revealed" to them.

This has got to be the dumbest strategy for imparting truth to people I've ever heard ascribed to the Creator of the Universe. It's difficult to conceive of a more unreliable communications medium between a being described as God, and a human being on planet Earth.
That the individual believers thinks they've become good at such interpretation of feelings, while their brethren and sistren apparently aren't doing it right, really ought to be a red flag to them. But it usually isn't. Oh well.

Emphasis added.

(I presume that Sethbag probably realizes that "sistren" is really a valid word, and wrote that for humorous effect )

[_subgenius]

I really like this comment by Sethbag from the Labans death defies logic and reality thread in the Terrestrial forum.

ummm...no wonder it was Terrestrial

...analyze their feelings...

...judge the nature of their feelings...

...they think has been "revealed"...

... interpretation of feelings...

Again, you are having the wrong argument because you have framed the wrong argument...so no wonder you think you "get it". I am somewhat convinced because t has become very apparent that you differ little from the fallacy of confirmation that you speak of....but i am sure you feel like you just really know it!
That being said....the simple, simple, simple flaw in your whole premise, your preconceived idea, and your predisposition is the basic and fundamental existence of that which is self-evident.
You either have never experienced that which is self-evident, have no concept of what is self-evident, or have any basic knowledge towards the meaning of self-evident - this can be the only explanation, barring a denial fueled by an ego that simply desires "being" over "understanding".

There is absolutely no evidence that proves that it is necessary to "analyze" to "judge" to "think" or to "interpret" one's Divine experience...the reason there is no evidence? because it is self-evident! There are, in fact, no "decisions" associated with that which is self-evident.
Have you ever loved someone? Did you one day, look at your "feelings", weigh the evidence, and ponder the concepts in order to finally decide that you indeed you were in love? No, you did not and to say otherwise makes a liar out of you and fool out of anyone who has read your posts.
Your inability to recognize this truth is the source of your tantrum. (just consider your "feelings" right now...what is real about them? are they defined by how you feel now or by how you will "reflect" upon them as you "formulate" your response?)

your denial of what composes a basic human existence is really the dumbest strategy for imparting truth...but to be fair, and by no fault of your own, i can't say you have been imparting any of that.

[_Gunnar]

Sorry, subgenius, I remain and will always remain skeptical of the veracity of claims that something is "self-evident", and there is nothing you can do about that. And yes, I have loved and do love--deeply, and I analyze even those feelings. I find that doing so only makes them even more real to me.

The irrefutable fact still remains that there are very many mutually contradictory religious belief systems and that many people have mistakenly attributed their convictions to divine inspiration or revelation. The claim that one cannot and should not analyze or question "promptings or revelations from God" is not only ludicrous but potentially very dangerous. The murderers Ron and Dan Lafferty committed their crime precisely because they did not try to question or analyze their "commandment from God" to kill a blameless woman and her baby. The 911 terrorists commited their act because they did not analyze or question their conviction that they were doing the will of God. No one is scarier or potentially more dangerous than one who uncritically accepts, without considering or analyzing any other possibilities that one has an infallible mandate from God!

[_Gunnar]

I am leaving this thread now, and going on to something else. Any who want to continue this discussion without me, are welcome to do so. My heartfelt thanks to all who have participated--especially subgenius, Tobin, Little Nipper and others who have inadvertently done even more to validate the conclusions stated in my OP than those who spoke out in favor of it!

[_Albion]

Tobin, perhaps you have had some kind of experience that you believe was a literal manifestation of God but I think scripture clearly demonstrates that this could not be so. As John again says, speaking to believers, in 1John 4: 11-12 "Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love each other, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."

John also gives an understanding of how to discern the the true Spirit of God: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the anitchrist which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." 1 John 4: 2-3. Clearly, there are false spirits at work whose one purpose is to deny, obscure and to pervert the good news of the saving grace of Christ...even the devil can transform himself into an angel of light, light being the very essence of God. I believe that to be the basis of Joseph Smith's experience.

Your use of "Happy?" suggests to me that somehow you question my motives or at very least my sincerity of purpose... which is simply a desire to combat falsehood and present the simple gospel of Jesus Christ and his saving grace. I wonder again why it is that so many Mormons, on the board and elsewhere, are quick to protest their own sincerity of purpose but reject it in those who might disagree with them?

[_Themis]

There is absolutely no evidence that proves that it is necessary to "analyze" to "judge" to "think" or to "interpret" one's Divine experience...the reason there is no evidence? because it is self-evident!

There is evidence, which has been brought up in the OP. Again I wonder how fallible people can receive an infallible experience. That it is necessary to analyze, judge, think, and interpret one's experience(whether they think they are of divine origin or not) is the only thing here close to being self evident. Whats worse is reading so many threads, I have not participated in, where people who believe they are getting divine experiences cannot agree on them. If they are self evident, then only one person or none are really getting a divine experiences.

Have you ever loved someone? Did you one day, look at your "feelings", weigh the evidence, and ponder the concepts in order to finally decide that you indeed you were in love? No, you did not and to say otherwise makes a liar out of you and fool out of anyone who has read your posts.

Making an assertion of lying just because we disagree with your obviously incorrect statement is a very weak apologetic. Of course we look at our feelings and ponder them. How else does someone decide they are in love with someone else.

[_Tobin]

Tobin, perhaps you have had some kind of experience that you believe was a literal manifestation of God but I think scripture clearly demonstrates that this could not be so. As John again says, speaking to believers, in 1John 4: 11-12 "Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love each other, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."

John also gives an understanding of how to discern the the true Spirit of God: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the anitchrist which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." 1 John 4: 2-3. Clearly, there are false spirits at work whose one purpose is to deny, obscure and to pervert the good news of the saving grace of Christ...even the devil can transform himself into an angel of light, light being the very essence of God. I believe that to be the basis of Joseph Smith's experience.

Your use of "Happy?" suggests to me that somehow you question my motives or at very least my sincerity of purpose... which is simply a desire to combat falsehood and present the simple gospel of Jesus Christ and his saving grace. I wonder again why it is that so many Mormons, on the board and elsewhere, are quick to protest their own sincerity of purpose but reject it in those who might disagree with them?

Fascinating. I'm sure you feel you are right, but what I find more interesting is the extent you go to dismiss other people's experiences with God instead of embracing them and those experiences instead. What I was trying to make you realize, by saying that my experience was figurative (using your own words) like Moses experience, is that you can apply all your dismissals to all the prophets of the Bible since they made similar claims. You have made it clear that you would reject a living prophet of God (or any of the prophets of the Bible if they were alive today) that made similar claims which is a shame since if you are unwilling to abide and follow the Lord and his servants (who have seen and spoken with the Lord), you will have no part in his kingdom.

Just a FYI - a true follower of God will seek to see, speak with, and follow the Lord and encourage others to do the same. All others will teach against this in some way and are NOT of God. This is how you identify false teachers and deceivers. The reasons they teach against it is because they want others to follow them and do as THEY say and not as the Lord says instead.