The Bottom Line

[_jo1952]

Let's play a game and see what the Bible says about people having seen God just for fun. I have a listed just a few sightings of God. Albion, your position is completely and utterly absurd and does not reflect the Bible at all. And I'm through with you.

Tobin,

I do not understand how anti-LDS can make erroneous claims that we must twist scripture in order for it to fit our belief system; while individuals like Albion not only twist scripture, they also throw so much of it away in order to cling to their belief system. Just look at these samples of passages that he has simply tossed into the trash because he is unable to reconcile his beliefs with them; and they are only concerning one issue. sigh...

Blessings,

jo

[_Tobin]

Let's play a game and see what the Bible says about people having seen God just for fun. I have a listed just a few sightings of God. Albion, your position is completely and utterly absurd and does not reflect the Bible at all. And I'm through with you.

Tobin,

I do not understand how anti-LDS can make erroneous claims that we must twist scripture in order for it to fit our belief system; while individuals like Albion not only twist scripture, they also throw so much of it away in order to cling to their belief system. Just look at these samples of passages that he has simply tossed into the trash because he is unable to reconcile his beliefs with them; and they are only concerning one issue. sigh...

Blessings,

jo

Yes, and it is a HUGE problem. The problem is people just do not believe the scriptures, even people like Albion who claim to. All the prophets have taught that they have seen and spoken with the Lord and are relating his words to us. All the prophets encourage us to seek the Lord, see him and speak with him in EXACTLY the same way. All Mormons invite others to do so. IN FACT, the Moroni promise expressly invite people to seek the Lord and speak with him.

I feel sorry for Mormons that leave the gospel because they do not understand this simple message. They do not truly seek the Lord till the see him and speak with him. Themis accuses me of being hypocritical when I say this, but he is being grossly inaccurate. The reason I feel sorry for people that do this is BECAUSE I have done exactly that. I have left Mormonism because I did not understand and only when the Lord came and chastised me did I truly understand what was necessary. I would hope others would not repeat my mistake and truly seek the Lord because of the suffering I went through when I realized the depth of my error.

[_schreech]

The reason I feel sorry for people that do this is BECAUSE I have done exactly that. I have left Mormonism because I did not understand and only when the Lord came and chastised me did I truly understand what was necessary. I would hope others would not repeat my mistake and truly seek the Lord because of the suffering I went through when I realized the depth of my error.

Ummm. Since you are the only one here claiming to have met god, why are you telling people to do it differently than you did? It seems like, if you really wanted us to "seek" god, you should document exactly what you did (including the different types of hallucinogenic drugs you were on) so that people who actually want to meet god have a checklist based on your experience....That's what joseph smith did.

[_Albion]

An interesting list, Tobin, but all is not as it seems. By my count you gave 27 references. Nine of those references use the word "appeared". God most certainly did "appear" but not one of them directly states that the one who witnessed the "appearing" actually saw God. God appeared to Moses most definitely but it was a manifestation of God demonstrated through a burning bush...not a literal God standing (presumably in the shape of a man as Mormons believe). I readily accept that manifestations of God have "appeared" to men but as I have already pointed out with your initial presentation from Exodus as a proof text that to literally look upon God means instant death. Numbers 14:14 uses the term face to face but is clearly talking about a manifestation of God in a pillar of cloud and not a literal God standing before them as you claim to have experienced.

Genesis 32; talks of an experience Jacob had wrestling with a man.... if the "man" is literally God he was most certainly not in his Godly glory but in some other manifestation that Jacob was able to endure. Other passages you use are clearly visions and out of body experiences which can teach us much but do not support any kind of earthly and literal face to face with God. Exodus 3323 is an interesting passage because it uses the term "back parts". Since God does not have "back parts" in the sense that mankind does it is to me a very clear reference to what can be termed a faint reflection of God's passing glory. Hab 3;3-5 is also an interesting passage but since this section is essentially a poem it uses allegorical language for description. Matthew 18:9 Clearly is talking of heaven and not the here and now.

Now I do understand that it is important for Mormons (to substantiate Smith's claims) to believe that men can stand literally before God looking at him face in all his holiness, glory and majesty but as the scriptures I stand on state clearly this cannot be so.

Exodus 33:19-20 And the Lord said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence (a manifestation of God) I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. BUT," he said, "YOU CANNOT SEE MY FACE FOR NO ONE MAY SEE MY FACE AND LIVE."

jOHN 1:4:12 "NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN GOD.''

[_Albion]

I omitted the essential question. If John clearly states than NO ONE has seen God (past tense) is he lying, is he misinformed...perhaps he is using the often used Mormon excuse for uncomfortable statements and speaking "only as a man". What exactly is he saying and why? His statement is simple and direct and leaves no room for interpretation.

[_Tobin]

The reason I feel sorry for people that do this is BECAUSE I have done exactly that. I have left Mormonism because I did not understand and only when the Lord came and chastised me did I truly understand what was necessary. I would hope others would not repeat my mistake and truly seek the Lord because of the suffering I went through when I realized the depth of my error.

Ummm. Since you are the only one here claiming to have met god, why are you telling people to do it differently than you did? It seems like, if you really wanted us to "seek" god, you should document exactly what you did (including the different types of hallucinogenic drugs you were on) so that people who actually want to meet god have a checklist based on your experience....That's what joseph smith did.

God didn't call me as a prophet. So I'd recommend you follow God's advice to his prophets instead. I know there is a God and it is sufficient for me. SO those that claim there is no God (or you can't see God as Albion has repeatedly claimed) are dead wrong as far as I am concerned.

[_Tobin]

I omitted the essential question. If John clearly states than NO ONE has seen God (past tense) is he lying, is he misinformed...perhaps he is using the often used Mormon excuse for uncomfortable statements and speaking "only as a man". What exactly is he saying and why? His statement is simple and direct and leaves no room for interpretation.

Or it is just simply you have no idea what you are talking about, which is where I (and others) stand.

[_Albion]

This last post from you, Tobin, is a complete cop out. I have attempted to respond to virtually every reference you have given with logical and reasonable responses. Your replies assume a presumed unassailable piety that argues that I just don't understand or that I don't have your inside knowledge. You fail to answer in any way the plain and simple passages I quoted, replying instead with an attack on me personally. That is pathetic in the extreme since you know nothing of me personally and nothing specific about my walk with God. Typically Mormon it would seem to me. Again Exodus 33: 20 and 1 John 4:12.

[_schreech]

God didn't call me as a prophet. So I'd recommend you follow God's advice to his prophets instead.

So you recommend that I should, if i want to see god, follow the advice of a bunch of people who have never seen god instead of following the steps that led to your "visitation"? I have never met someone that claims to have seen god by following "prophets" - I am much more interested in the steps that led to your hallucination/vision/visitation...Let your light so shine my man!

[_Tobin]

I think my assessment is fair and accurate. I'll stand by it. Your dismissal of the obvious scriptural citations (and their implications) are simply put absurd.