Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_Franktalk]

I think I will post what I think scripture says about grace.

Ephesians 2

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

It is being laid out that what is to follow is not according to the course of this world. That being the road of Satan. But the good road is spirit and faith.

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Again he is detailing the error of the flesh and of the mind. What is not in error is the spiritual nature of man when he is seeking God by spiritual discernment.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

God sees our need for help so we may come to Him.

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

God called and the elect hear His voice. God helped us turn from the sins of death. It is by grace that God starts us down the right path. We did not earn that first help that God gave us.

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

As we develop our spirit we experience the heavenly places that are only sensed by spiritual means.

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For those who do not believe in dispensations you can stop reading now because this can't be true in your eyes. But for the rest of us. God will over and over again lead us so we may progress down the correct path in each age to follow just as He is helping with us today in this dispensation.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Grace leads the way for us to develop the faith that will save us. The gift from God is His desire for all to be saved so He gives us a little help to get started.

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This refers to works of the flesh which a man would do in order to obtain a debt that God owed him. The work in the flesh is motivated by pride not in righteousness. Contrast this with the works in the spirit in the next verse.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So the work that God did for us was giving us grace so we could start the right path. This is His workmanship. This leads to faith in the good works that Jesus did for us. We are to embrace the works of Jesus and to the best of our abilities we should also perform those works as well, we should walk in them.

[_jo1952]

I think I will post what I think scripture says about grace.

Ephesians 2

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

It is being laid out that what is to follow is not according to the course of this world. That being the road of Satan. But the good road is spirit and faith.

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Again he is detailing the error of the flesh and of the mind. What is not in error is the spiritual nature of man when he is seeking God by spiritual discernment.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

God sees our need for help so we may come to Him.

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

God called and the elect hear His voice. God helped us turn from the sins of death. It is by grace that God starts us down the right path. We did not earn that first help that God gave us.

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

As we develop our spirit we experience the heavenly places that are only sensed by spiritual means.

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For those who do not believe in dispensations you can stop reading now because this can't be true in your eyes. But for the rest of us. God will over and over again lead us so we may progress down the correct path in each age to follow just as He is helping with us today in this dispensation.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Grace leads the way for us to develop the faith that will save us. The gift from God is His desire for all to be saved so He gives us a little help to get started.

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This refers to works of the flesh which a man would do in order to obtain a debt that God owed him. The work in the flesh is motivated by pride not in righteousness. Contrast this with the works in the spirit in the next verse.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So the work that God did for us was giving us grace so we could start the right path. This is His workmanship. This leads to faith in the good works that Jesus did for us. We are to embrace the works of Jesus and to the best of our abilities we should also perform those works as well, we should walk in them.

The following teaching is mind blowing:

John 14:12 (KJV) (Jesus is speaking)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Think of the works which Jesus did!! He did all that was commanded of Him by Father -- being obedient to all that Father required of Him. Jesus is talking in the present tense here. Jesus' work was not yet complete when He taught this. He did not exclude any of the works He was doing. "The works that I do shall he (the believer) do also; and GREATER works than these shall he do." He did NOT say "the works that I HAVE done"; He was still doing works. Jesus did His greatest "work" after this teaching; He atoned for our sins. How is it even possible for those who believe on Jesus to imagine what greater work than His Atonement could even look like? Yet His teaching was that we shall do greater works than Him!! Obviously, there is much more Truth we need to have revealed to us in order to understand this most amazing and startling prophecy!!

Blessings,

jo

[_Albion]

Ah, tag team tactics. "But when the kindness and love (grace) of God our Savior appeared, he savED us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy (grace). He savED us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." Titus 3: 4-5. Paul is speaking to believers here and those believers have been savED (past tense) and are not just setting out on a path to salvation. They knew they were saved and without the necessity of trying to earn that salvation they were free to grown and learn and mature in the one who provided that salvation in the first place.

[_gdemetz]

He will save no one unless they keep the commandments He has given! Even if they do and they return to their sins, then they are still not saved! "For if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS"!

[_jo1952]

Ah, tag team tactics. "But when the kindness and love (grace) of God our Savior appeared, he savED us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy (grace). He savED us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." Titus 3: 4-5. Paul is speaking to believers here and those believers have been savED (past tense) and are not just setting out on a path to salvation. They knew they were saved and without the necessity of trying to earn that salvation they were free to grown and learn and mature in the one who provided that salvation in the first place.

Albion,

Do you have any thoughts about Jesus' teaching which I pointed to? What kind of works can believers do which are greater than the works Jesus did? by the way, I do not think Jesus was talking about our keeping the commandments here. Therefore, I believe that what Jesus was talking about went beyond our personal salvation. I think He is trying to reveal a mystery for us; but we need the guidance of the Holy Ghost. I have already begun to share some of what I believe He is teaching in my previous post. Any thoughts? Ideas?

Do ANY believing readers have thoughts or ideas about this teaching which they would like to share?

Blessings,

jo

[_Albion]

Jo, I think the NIV interpretation of this verse gives a little clearer understanding. ""I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." This verse is part of a long conversation Jesus had with his disciples and comes immediately after his declaration of his oneness with the Father. He tells his disciples that his words are the words of the Father living in him but if that oneness is a problem at least believe in the evidence of the miracles he has performed. He then goes on with the words in verse 12.

Obviously they will never do anything so great as his atonement but he talks of the miracles and preaching he has done...and the reason they will be able to do equal and greater things is "because I am going to the Father". They will not only have the direct advocacy of Jesus at the right hand of the Father but they will have the fulness of the Holy Spirit which can only come when Jesus has ascended to the Father.

What works did they do which were greater than what Jesus was doing? I submit that the apostles' works in spreading the gospel throughout the known world were greater than what Jesus achieved...certainly in numbers and in area covered and we see the result of this work in the collective church today. We know from Acts that after receiving the Holy Spirit miracles were performed through them and I believe there were many subsequent ones that we do not have an accounting of. I see no mystery here, simply what is written

[_jo1952]

Jo, I think the NIV interpretation of this verse gives a little clearer understanding. ""I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." This verse is part of a long conversation Jesus had with his disciples and comes immediately after his declaration of his oneness with the Father. He tells his disciples that his words are the words of the Father living in him but if that oneness is a problem at least believe in the evidence of the miracles he has performed. He then goes on with the words in verse 12.

Albion,

Thank you for presenting your interpretation. What I see is that the NIV has changed "tenses" which effectively completely changes the KJV version. This is yet another manifestation of so many different interpretations of the Bible which is one of the causes of so many different denominations.

You have faith in the authority of what the Apostles taught because they WERE Apostles chosen by God, yes? The Holy Ghost was leading the Apostles after Christ's Ascension, yes? Why do you give that same faith in current generations of men who are not Apostles? How do you know their translation clarifies the KJV; especially inasmuch as the NIV version entirely changes the KJV version?

When you hang your hat on their words and make their translations the interpretations which you then allow yourself to be the "correct" belief, do you give consideration to the evidence that the NIV version of the Bible is completely changing the meaning of the previously written KJV version of the Bible?

This would also beg the question as to whether it is the Holy Ghost who has confirmed to you that the NIV version is correct; or do you choose to believe it to be the correct version because that is what others in the church you go to believe in? Keep in mind that no matter how you answer this question, that you are giving creedence to something being translated correctly by individuals who were not Apostles or Prophets.

I recognize that this is also true of the KJV version; so I am not asking you to answer any questions which I do not also ask myself. I DID want to be sure to point out, though, that the NIV version completely contradicts in writing what the KJV version has written.

I am NOT trying to make reference to any latter-day apostles or prophets. My comments are based upon YOUR beliefs which are based on a different version of the Bible (which translation has changed the meaning of the words written in a different translation of the Bible)---I am merely presenting to you what your beliefs look like.

Now, going back to my original comments, the hints I have provided about the KJV version are NOT taught by the LDS Church. Actually, I am not aware of ANY religious institution which ventures to teach where I am going. However, I have no doubts that other believers have and do venture where I am going with this passage.

Obviously they will never do anything so great as his atonement but he talks of the miracles and preaching he has done...and the reason they will be able to do equal and greater things is "because I am going to the Father". They will not only have the direct advocacy of Jesus at the right hand of the Father but they will have the fulness of the Holy Spirit which can only come when Jesus has ascended to the Father.

Can you provide Biblical support that they will "obviously never do anything so great" as Jesus' Atonement? Also, the Apostles had already been performing miracles and had been preaching BEFORE Christ's Ascension.

What works did they do which were greater than what Jesus was doing? I submit that the apostles' works in spreading the gospel throughout the known world were greater than what Jesus achieved...certainly in numbers and in area covered and we see the result of this work in the collective church today. We know from Acts that after receiving the Holy Spirit miracles were performed through them and I believe there were many subsequent ones that we do not have an accounting of. I see no mystery here, simply what is written

I agree that the Apostles were able to take the Gospel message to more people than Jesus did. However, they were the messengers. Through their efforts, the Gospel message reached the ears of more people than Jesus was able to preach to. But the Apostles works, which included their witnessing, was NOT "greater" than the work of the Holy Ghost.

1 John 5:7-9 (KJV) (emphasis is mine)

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Since it is the Holy Ghost who gives the "greater" witness, then I do not think that the "greater works" talked about by Christ can be the Apostles' efforts of spreading the Gospel message. Therefore, it MUST be something else which Christ was pointing to BECAUSE it is the Holy Ghost who is doing the "greater" work when the Apostles spread the Gospel message. If you believe that the Holy Ghost can do something Greater than Jesus was able to do, then you would be abandoning the Trinity as man understands it. In other words, you would be allowing for the Holy Ghost to have more power and the ability to do greater work than the Son of God.

I know this is difficult for man to get their head around. I am not trying to trick you. I AM trying to present what your beliefs ultimately pan out to do; i.e., they wind up giving more power to the works of the Holy Ghost than the works of Jesus (which would include the Atonement). I will also re-iterate that since it is the Holy Ghost who is the "greater" witness, I do not think Jesus was referring to the Apostles' "greater works" as being their missionary efforts.

So, I will leave you to ponder these comments, and also invite other readers to share their comments. In fact, I think I will invite non-believers to share their interpretation of what the KJV version could possibly be telling us as they will not have a biased view of the words themselves. I would only ask that they stick to the words which are written and not add remarks (i.e., this is not a discussion about whether God exists, or about what kind of God He is) which would take us beyond the focus of this discussion.

Here is that passage again,

John 14:12 (KJV) (Jesus is speaking)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Blessings,

jo

[_Franktalk]

The NIV Bible has big problems.

http://www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/ ... s/niv.html

The KJV also has problems but they are minor compared to the NIV. If someone does not put in enough effort to learn some old English then why should I care what they think.

Each translation is further and further from the original message. But the Holy Ghost can jump over those errors and give us the message directly from the source. But many will not listen or even ask for discernment. They instead assume that what is before them is correct. This would be a road to apostasy.

[_gdemetz]

No eternal security for those who "sin willfully" and don't keep the commandments!

[Guest]

Mr man GOD nickname ‘Elohiem’ and Mrs woman god were bored one eternity, so they decided to do what they always did throughout eternity and went intelligence gathering in the midst of space.

When they got home they were feeling creative so they made themselves some spirit children, using the intel they had just collected.

It was clear to him that some of those spirit children were made from more intelligence than others so he decided to put them ones in charge of the less intelligent ones.

Before long some were asking “Dad, How come we are just ghosts, why don’t we have REAL bodies?”

So GOD says Ok, let’s have a competition anyone who takes part gets a REAL body.

Jehovah a.k.a. ‘Word,’ and Lucifer a.k.a. ‘Satan,’ you’re the oldest and cleverest, you decide the rules of the game and get all the others involved.

Jehovah said “Who wants to go to play the game of “LIFE”
it’s a mixture of Eloheim hide and seek and Eloheim says?

Heres the rules:
At the beginning of the game, everyone has their memory of this life erased.

Elohiem picks one of each gender and gives the man a REAL body to start the game off, we’ll then anaesthetise him, cut him open take out one of his ribs and close it back up, form a woman from it.

At this point Satan pipes up and says hang on what is the point of that?
Why not just create her like you created him?

Jehovah: Don’t question me; I’m more intelligent than you. I know why, but I am not going to tell anyone, my logic, my game, my rules.

Anyway, I’ll tell them they can eat from all the trees in the garden, but not the tree of knowledge of good and evil, I’ll also tell them to multiply like the birds and bees, but at the same time, they won’t be able to have babies till they eat from the tree. When they eventually know the difference between good and evil, do they’ll start to rapidly age and die.

Satan: Wait, wait, wait. That’s daft! You’re commanding them NOT to do something before they get the ability to understand the difference between DO and DO NOT?
Then you’re going to punish them for it. They then have to incestuously copulate to bring the rest of us into the game? What planet are you on?

How are you going to get them to eat the fruit to start the game?

Jehovah: Easy, I’ll get a snake to talk them into it.

Satan: Ok, if Dad chooses your plan over mine, I will gladly be that snake, because it ain’t gonna happen!

Jehovah: I’ll only tell the 1st man at the start of the game, the rules then as people join 1 by 1 they have to rely on what the people that have been playing before, tell them is true or not.

Anyone who gets fooled by someone else telling them what to do, in mine or Gods name can’t come back here to live with Dad, but has to live on the planet below this one, which is slightly darker and the ones who really mess up below that and the really bad ones below that and so on.

I am going to go down half way through and show everyone how easy it is to play a perfect game.

Satan: Yeah But, If you play the game by your own rules, you’ll have had your memory erased, how will you know the rules?

Jehovah: my game, my rules! I’ll get DAD to come down and mix his genes with one of the girls. Therefore I’ll be born part GOD and part human, no one will know my memory’s not entirely wiped.

Satan: What? You are going to cheat!

Satan: I’d hate to think what they’ll do to you, when they find out.

Enter GOD: Right what’s happening you two, have you told everyone the rules?

Satan: Yeah, about that… I’m just going to take my lot for a walk, because Jehovah’s game plan is MUCKED UP!!!

GOD: Right so you and your lot don’t get the reward of a REAL body, if you don’t take part.

Satan: Bothered?

I am out of here!

Who’s with me?