Book of Mormon Geography

[yellowstone123]

Shulem, it’s fiction. A little truth and a few stretches entertains many people.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Doc, are you there?

I thought I should let you know I’m here and reading the exchange, I just didn’t know what to say yesterday. Look, Shulem, people are either gonna get it or not. You’ve untangled the shite show of Mormon history with regard to the Book of Abraham, and now you’re hot on the Book of Mormon’s trail. Delmarva is it. Whether people are going to understand Joseph Smith used place names from *over there* and hung them on a setting *over here*, well, probably not because most people aren’t following this too closely. That’s why I thought you should write a book, because it’ll package everything together nicely, and become a resource.

Tl;dr - Joseph Smith GRRM’d Delmarva and that’s the truth. It is what it is. And Paul figured it out.

- Doc

[Shulem]

Doc, are you there?

I thought I should let you know I’m here and reading the exchange, I just didn’t know what to say yesterday. Look, Shulem, people are either gonna get it or not. You’ve untangled the shite show of Mormon history with regard to the Book of Abraham, and now you’re hot on the Book of Mormon’s trail. Delmarva is it. Whether people are going to understand Joseph Smith used place names from *over there* and hung them on a setting *over here*, well, probably not because most people aren’t following this too closely. That’s why I thought you should write a book, because it’ll package everything together nicely, and become a resource.

Tl;dr - Joseph Smith GRRM’d Delmarva and that’s the truth. It is what it is. And Paul figured it out.

- Doc

A book? That’s a mighty undertaking and anything’s possible. I’m retiring next year so I will have time on my hands to consider possibilities. A publisher may want to pick that up because there is real potential for a widespread audience. Such a book would not be written just for Latter-day Saints; it would better serve a general audience for the world to see the makings of the Book of Mormon from a perspective that took 200 years to crack. Millions of interested readers around the world may be interested in how Book of Mormon geography came into play via Delmarva.

I’ve got the inside scoop and am qualified to share that knowledge from a vantage point that I really enjoy.

Thanks for being here and enjoying this amazing ride compliments of Joe’s secret geography. You have inspired me, Doc.

[Shulem]

Shulem, it’s fiction. A little truth and a few stretches entertains many people.

You don’t say? I’m glad you’re here to tell me that. I never would have figured that out had you not told me.

[yellowstone123]

We all need to be informed every once in a while. I’m top of the list

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I thought I should let you know I’m here and reading the exchange, I just didn’t know what to say yesterday. Look, Shulem, people are either gonna get it or not. You’ve untangled the shite show of Mormon history with regard to the Book of Abraham, and now you’re hot on the Book of Mormon’s trail. Delmarva is it. Whether people are going to understand Joseph Smith used place names from *over there* and hung them on a setting *over here*, well, probably not because most people aren’t following this too closely. That’s why I thought you should write a book, because it’ll package everything together nicely, and become a resource.

Tl;dr - Joseph Smith GRRM’d Delmarva and that’s the truth. It is what it is. And Paul figured it out.

- Doc

A book? That’s a mighty undertaking and anything’s possible. I’m retiring next year so I will have time on my hands to consider possibilities. A publisher may want to pick that up because there is real potential for a widespread audience. Such a book would not be written just for Latter-day Saints; it would better serve a general audience for the world to see the makings of the Book of Mormon from a perspective that took 200 years to crack. Millions of interested readers around the world may be interested in how Book of Mormon geography came into play via Delmarva.

I’ve got the inside scoop and am qualified to share that knowledge from a vantage point that I really enjoy.

Thanks for being here and enjoying this amazing ride compliments of Joe’s secret geography. You have inspired me, Doc.

I mean, a book can be thin or thick, it just depends how you want to present it. Just remember to includes LOTS of maps and pictures for people like me

Oh, and cite your sources - don’t be a Dorkenpork.

- Doc

[Shulem]

There may be a rare stream in northwest Arabia but there are no rivers leading into the Red Sea as the text claims: “He called the name of the river, Laman, and it emptied into the Red Sea; and the valley was in the borders near the mouth thereof.”

Only in the imagination of Joseph Smith and creative old maps in which he may have seen gave him license to romanticize Arabia in suiting his own fancy.

This map is no more accurate than the one described in the Book of Mormon which gives us the impression that Arabia had rivers:



For the record:

Saudi Arabia is a desert country with no permanent rivers or lakes and very little rainfall.

Yemen is so dry that it doesn’t have any permanently flowing rivers—only dry river valleys known as wadis.

There are no perennial rivers in Oman. A small number of wadis (shallow watercourses) are found in the Al Hajar Mountains and their foothills, however.

Of course, this does not bode well for Lehi’s river Laman or Bountiful for that matter!

Apologists for the Book of Mormon have been poisoning the well ever since the subject was first brought up by Pratt (Lehi landed in Chile) and the likes of Sorenson and Brant Gardner who poisons the well with apologetic garbage even today. I’ve made it a point all these years to avoid them like the plague and pay little mind to what they say because they are blind leading the blind in search of Zarahemla which never existed in the first place. For them, it’s a matter of testimony joining hands with genuine historical geography at any cost! But allow me to set the record straight.

Look:

And it came to pass that when he had traveled three days in the wilderness, he pitched his tent in a  valley by the side of a river of water.

Note that this body of water is a river in a valley, not on the open landscape where it might dry up or come to a thing of naught during dry weather conditions. It’s in a permanent “valley!” The body of water in question is a RIVER, not a stream, not a creek, not a wadi! It’s a mighty river!

And it came to pass that he built an  altar of stones, and made an offering unto the Lord, and gave  thanks unto the Lord our God.

This was the place; everything they needed to subsist for a season. Lehi built an altar of stone and thanked God for the wonderful bounty of the RIVER!

And it came to pass that he called the name of the river, Laman, and it emptied into the Red Sea; and the valley was in the borders near the mouth thereof.

The river was hereby named after one of the sons of Lehi who viewed it as something of long lasting import being perpetual in nature. Thus a river continues forever, generation after generation, receiving its water from its source, ever flowing, and emptying into the mouth of the sea.

And when my father saw that the waters of the river emptied into the fountain of the Red Sea, he spake unto Laman, saying: O that thou mightest be like unto this river, continually running into the fountain of all righteousness!

A natural source of water flowed as it cut through the valley and emptied into the Red Sea. This was not a stream. It was not wadi. It was a river that CONTINUALLY runs from the interior of Arabia like a fountain into a mouth on the Red Sea. It was a mighty river!

And he also spake unto Lemuel: O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord!

Lehi pleads with his son Lemuel and encourages him to be like the valley that is not just firm but endures forever like the river that ever flows from the valley in Arabia into the mouth of the Red Sea.

Of course, all of this is a geographical fantasy with regard to Arabia and the region in which Lehi was supposed to have settled. The story is pure fiction! Brant Gardner, wake up!

[Moksha]

Shulem, it’s fiction.

The most lucrative fiction ever written.

[Shulem]

And it came to pass that he called the name of the river, Laman, and it emptied into the Red Sea; and the valley was in the borders near the mouth thereof.

And when my father saw that the waters of the river emptied into the fountain of the Red Sea, he spake unto Laman, saying: O that thou mightest be like unto this river, continually running into the fountain of all righteousness!

WHAT RIVER?



The only thing the apologists can dig up is the occasional wadi that occurs during the rainy season which basically consist of a dry river bed in a valley that fills with water when the rain finally comes and then it disappears before long. But the Book of Mormon describes a mighty river that flows into the Red Sea like a fountain! That is what Lehi described! That is what Lehi wanted his son Laman to emulate, “O that thou mightest be like unto this river, continually running into the fountain of all righteousness.” Lehi admonished his son Laman to endure like the everflowing river in righteousness that never ceases. But the apologists can’t find that river in Arabia because it did not exist in 600 BC and neither does it exist today. And that does not bode well for a story that attempts to match the sons of Lehi with the attributes of a river that is continually running or a valley that is firm and steadfast and unmovable!

I’m afraid that today’s apologists have nothing but a dry river bed that gets a little water when the rain comes and that’s about all the righteousness we are afforded out of Laman’s dry river bed!

I want readers to know that apologists don’t have a leg to stand on or a river in which to base the geography of Lehi’s account. Joseph Smith screwed up in identifying a river in Arabia.

[Shulem]

Church apologists love to pose a rhetorical question, “How could Joseph have known,” in trying to get their audience to embrace the idea that Joseph Smith revealed something that nobody could have known without revelation. It’s a tactic to try and turn something into a bullseye when in fact it may not be as remarkable as they claim.

Now, we know that there were no rivers at anytime in Arabia from 600 BC until today. Rivers at that locality were and are nonexistent. So, I would like to pose this question to Daniel C. Peterson, former professor at BYU:

How could Joseph have known there was a river in northwest Arabia that leads into the Red Sea like a fountain continually flowing in righteousness?

You see, two can play that game! Checkmate, Dan.