What's Your Take on Near Death Experiences?

[Anonymous]

.

[_Fortigurn]

First of all, have you ever tried "psychotropic chemicals"?

No. I watched my father suffer under prescription psychotropics for 16 years though. Does that count?

Do you know the difference between an opiate and a psychedelic?

Yes.

[_gramps]

I find it ironic that religion is derided as escapism for the weakminded with the term 'the opiate of the masses', whilst those who practice escapism with literal opiates (and equivalent psychotropic chemicals), are hailed as visionaries, leaders, and social pioneers.

Hi Fortigurn, Which opiates are equivalent to which psychotropic chemicals? You assert that such is the case, but before we discuss the statement, I would be interested to know exactly which ones you are indicating. I know of no entheogen personally that has any similar effect to opiates, so please let me know which ones you are talking about.

The prescription psychotropics that your father suffered under are not what I would term entheogens. But again, which ones are you talking about? Do you know which ones he was prescribed to take from his doctor?

Also, one can practice escapism with anything: Harry Potter novels, various kinds of chemical substances, sex, t.v. and, yes, religion. It's probably not the most effective way to move through this life, no matter what form of escapism one chooses. But, following where I think you are going, I would say that some who practice religion are not using it as a form of escape, some use drugs are not using them as a form of escape, etc. and vice versa.

[_Fortigurn]

Hi Fortigurn, Which opiates are equivalent to which psychotropic chemicals? You assert that such is the case, but before we discuss the statement, I would be interested to know exactly which ones you are indicating. I know of no entheogen personally that has any similar effect to opiates, so please let me know which ones you are talking about.

The opiates which can have hallucinogenic effects (such as Buprenorphine).

The prescription psychotropics that your father suffered under are not what I would term entheogens.

No, I'm sure they weren't. I didn't refer to them as opiates, either.

But again, which ones are you talking about? Do you know which ones he was prescribed to take from his doctor?

The old mad, bad ones, the standard tri-cyclic anti-depressants of the era (nortriptyline, rivotril, and a couple of others I can't recall). The lithium and SSRI treatments didn't come until later.

Also, one can practice escapism with anything...

Yes. It's just that when people do it with religion they're simpletons, but when they do it with illicit drugs they're some kind of hero. Right?

But, following where I think you are going, I would say that some who practice religion are not using it as a form of escape, some use drugs are not using them as a form of escape, etc. and vice versa.

I certainly agree. But I wasn't even going to bother going there.

[_gramps]

Hi Fortigurn, Which opiates are equivalent to which psychotropic chemicals? You assert that such is the case, but before we discuss the statement, I would be interested to know exactly which ones you are indicating. I know of no entheogen personally that has any similar effect to opiates, so please let me know which ones you are talking about.

The opiates which can have hallucinogenic effects (such as Buprenorphine).

The prescription psychotropics that your father suffered under are not what I would term entheogens.

No, I'm sure they weren't. I didn't refer to them as opiates, either.

But again, which ones are you talking about? Do you know which ones he was prescribed to take from his doctor?

The old mad, bad ones, the standard tri-cyclic anti-depressants of the era (nortriptyline, rivotril, and a couple of others I can't recall). The lithium and SSRI treatments didn't come until later.

Also, one can practice escapism with anything...

Yes. It's just that when people do it with religion they're simpletons, but when they do it with illicit drugs they're some kind of hero. Right?

But, following where I think you are going, I would say that some who practice religion are not using it as a form of escape, some use drugs are not using them as a form of escape, etc. and vice versa.

I certainly agree. But I wasn't even going to bother going there.

I just read up on Buprenorphine. Sounds like an awful substance, and very dangerous. I think, to be clear here, the other poster who mentioned psychotropic drugs, meant entheogens, only. But, I'm not sure, though I read him that way. Certainly, some drugs which cause hallucinations are not entheogens.

I am very aware of the old tri-cyclic anti-depressants. Wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy.

I don't know who is arguing that entheogen users are heroes on this thread. Did someone do that in this thread? I have had some very worthwhile experiences with some of these entheogens, but that does not make me a hero. Nor does it make you a simpleton for believing in Christ as a Savior.

So, when you write:

Yes. It's just that when people do it with religion they're simpletons, but when they do it with illicit drugs they're some kind of hero. Right?

my answer would be: Wrong!

And those who are having similar experiences from breathing and music exercises through seminars at Esalen are neither heroes, nor simpletons. They are just people who are trying to experience the "mystical," for want of a better term.

[_Fortigurn]

I just read up on Buprenorphine. Sounds like an awful substance, and very dangerous.

Very.

I am very aware of the old tri-cyclic anti-depressants. Wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy.

Hell on earth for anyone taking them, and anyone near anyone taking them. It led to my father seeking his own form of relief, which was a bullet to the head. Which worked out very well for all concerned, and was a vast improvement on the previous treatment.

I don't know who is arguing that entheogen users are heroes on this thread. Did someone do that in this thread? I have had some very worthwhile experiences with some of these entheogens, but that does not make me a hero. Nor does it make you a simpleton for believing in Christ as a Savior.

I agree. I was citing popular opinion as I frequently experience it. I'm on another forum in which fans of erowid lionize each other and laud their experiences as progressive strides in human development, whilst at the same time ridiculing Christians as escapist fantasists. Personally, I think most of them are just pathetic crackheads, which pretty much makes us even.

[_gramps]

I just read up on Buprenorphine. Sounds like an awful substance, and very dangerous.

Very.

I am very aware of the old tri-cyclic anti-depressants. Wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy.

Hell on earth for anyone taking them, and anyone near anyone taking them. It led to my father seeking his own form of relief, which was a bullet to the head. Which worked out very well for all concerned, and was a vast improvement on the previous treatment.

I don't know who is arguing that entheogen users are heroes on this thread. Did someone do that in this thread? I have had some very worthwhile experiences with some of these entheogens, but that does not make me a hero. Nor does it make you a simpleton for believing in Christ as a Savior.

I agree. I was citing popular opinion as I frequently experience it. I'm on another forum in which fans of erowid lionize each other and laud their experiences as progressive strides in human development, whilst at the same time ridiculing Christians as escapist fantasists. Personally, I think most of them are just pathetic crackheads, which pretty much makes us even.

VERY sorry to hear about your father.

I don't know of any good stories with those tri-cyclics.

About the erowid vault. It does have some good information. I was over there researching about Ketamin the other day. I jumped on the forum to see what people were talking about and it seemed to be full of young kids, full of themselves and not following the very information that the vault provides. Sigh! Dangerous place for newbies (I'm not referring to you), in my opinion.

Methheads and crackheads are pathetic, really. No arguments with you there. I really do believe that these problems could be better solved by bringing everything above the table and getting rid of the black market. But again, just my .02.

[_Fortigurn]

VERY sorry to hear about your father.

Thanks. But believe me, it was the best thing for him. I didn't grieve the loss, and as a Christian I have fairly pragmatic view of suffering and death (no, I don't believe people go to heaven). His mind was seriously breaking up, and he had a horror of ending his days as a drooling vegetable in a wheelchair, which is where he was heading. When medicine can really do no more, we have to just let go.

I don't know of any good stories with those tri-cyclics.

Neither do I. Pity he died just before the lithiums came in.

About the erowid vault. It does have some good information. I was over there researching about Ketamin the other day. I jumped on the forum to see what people were talking about and it seemed to be full of young kids, full of themselves and not following the very information that the vault provides. Sigh! Dangerous place for newbies (I'm not referring to you), in my opinion.

I certainly agree. I personally applaud the responsible authors of the site, who appear to have the most sensible motives, but a lot of the punters there have totally missed the point of the entire project.

Methheads and crackheads are pathetic, really. No arguments with you there. I really do believe that these problems could be better solved by bringing everything above the table and getting rid of the black market. But again, just my .02.

It might interest you to know that I agree. On the other forum I actually argued for the legalisation and regulation of both soft and hard drugs. Have you read 'High Society'? Excellent.

[_gramps]

VERY sorry to hear about your father.

Thanks. But believe me, it was the best thing for him. I didn't grieve the loss, and as a Christian I have fairly pragmatic view of suffering and death (no, I don't believe people go to heaven). His mind was seriously breaking up, and he had a horror of ending his days as a drooling vegetable in a wheelchair, which is where he was heading. When medicine can really do no more, we have to just let go.

I don't know of any good stories with those tri-cyclics.

Neither do I. Pity he died just before the lithiums came in.

About the erowid vault. It does have some good information. I was over there researching about Ketamin the other day. I jumped on the forum to see what people were talking about and it seemed to be full of young kids, full of themselves and not following the very information that the vault provides. Sigh! Dangerous place for newbies (I'm not referring to you), in my opinion.

I certainly agree. I personally applaud the responsible authors of the site, who appear to have the most sensible motives, but a lot of the punters there have totally missed the point of the entire project.

Methheads and crackheads are pathetic, really. No arguments with you there. I really do believe that these problems could be better solved by bringing everything above the table and getting rid of the black market. But again, just my .02.

It might interest you to know that I agree. On the other forum I actually argued for the legalisation and regulation of both soft and hard drugs. Have you read 'High Society'? Excellent.

Yes, I think I've read nearly everything on the subject that I can get my hands on. I have particularly enjoyed Shulgin's two books, Pikhal and Thikhal. I can't remember which came first, but the first one is a great read. Also, I really enjoyed Howard Marks' first book, Mr. Nice, one of your fellow Britishmen, I believe.

Peace (however you can get it)!

[_Fortigurn]

Also, I really enjoyed Howard Marks' first book, Mr. Nice, one of your fellow Britishmen, I believe.

I'm actually Australian, but it doesn't matter.

Peace (however you can get it)!

Thanks, same to you. I must say I've found this a refreshing exchange.