Chastity

[_Inconceivable]

So does your thimbleful of faith have room for Christ not being a liar?

A 2000 year old conversation not written by the hand of Jesus.. and that makes Jesus a liar?

As for the character of Abraham:

From Hagar's perspective, I'm sure she would beg to differ with your description of a man that cast her into the wilderness with their child to die a slow death.

It will be quite the disturbing day when fresh warm animal blood will bathe the alters of the 110+ temples. Not to mention the stench of burning hair. I guess Fridays will be "sheep day" in the temple cafeteria for the patrons. I'll pass.

[_Gazelam]

There is no place in the Old Testament that states it was a commandment, but it was practiced by exalted men.

Polygamy is not a requirement for exaltation, only Marriage is.

Polyandry is not a commandment either.

People might say:
"Yes, but God never condoned polygamy."
"Yes, God allowed it, but He was against polygamy."
"Polygamy was only man's idea, not God's".
"Yes, but God never approved of polygamy."

The passage involving 2 Samuel 12:8 rather clearly reveals otherwise.

"And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things."
2 Samuel 12:8.

The context of the verse is that of God, speaking through a prophet (Nathan), calling out David for David's sin of taking another man's wife (Bathsheba, wife of Uriah the Hittite), which is adultery indeed, and for setting up the death of Uriah the Hittite to try to hide David's sin.

Also, at the point in time of this situation, David had already been married to at least seven known-named wives. (1_Samuel 18:27, 25:42-43, 2_Samuel 3:2-5.)

But, in this verse 12 (above), God was not condemning David for all his wives! In fact, this verse 12 shows God Himself actually saying that HE was the One Who had GIVEN David His wives.

If God was against David's polygamy, He certainly would not have said that He had GIVEN David his wives.

But the LORD did not stop there. That verse 12 shows that the Lord took it even one step further than that! The LORD God even went on further to say that if David had wanted more wives, the Lord Himself said that He would have given David even more!

It was only because David had sinned, in committing adultery by taking another man's wife, and then causing that man's death to try to hide David's sin, that the Lord was calling him out through the prophet Nathan. There was no sin in the polygamy at all.

This is later confirmed that this was the only matter by 1 Kings 15:5, which says the following:

"Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. "
1 Kings 15:5.

Two verses before that, in 1 Kings 15:3, the Bible says that David's heart was perfect with the LORD God.

Very clearly, therefore, what all this shows is that God is the One Who gives wives, even when more than one wife.

This is, of course, confirmed by 1_Corinthians 7:17.

"But as God hath distributed to every man,
as the Lord hath called every one,
so let him walk.
And so ordain I in all churches."
1 Corinthians 7:17.

Be it
NO wife,
ONE wife, or
MORE THAN ONE wife,
it is only as God calls and gives.

As such, it is clear that the Bible does, in fact, explicitly show

"Yes, God did condone polygamy."
"Yes, God allowed it, and He was not against polygamy."
"Polygamy is not a man's idea, but God's".
"Yes, God did approve of polygamy."

In 2 Samuel 12:8, He Himself said so!

(source - http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/exegesi ... ave-wives/ )

[_Jason Bourne]

There is no place in the Old Testament that states it was a commandment, but it was practiced by exalted men.

Correct. God did not command but he tolerated it.

Polygamy is not a requirement for exaltation, only Marriage is.

As practiced in the LDS Church it was a requirement for exaltation. D&C 132 teaches this and so did Brigham Young.

Polyandry is not a commandment either.

Yet is was part of what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did in relation to plural marriage.

My point is to use the Old Testament to defend LDS polygamy just does not work at all.

[_Gazelam]

According to the Lord's law of marriage, it is lawful that a man have only one wife at a time, unless by revelation the Lord commands plurality of wives in the new and everlasting covenant. (D&C 49:15-17.) Speaking of "the doctrine of plurality of wives," the Prophet said: "I hold the keys of this power in the last days; for there is never but one on earth at a time on whom the power and its keys are conferred; and I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time, unless the Lord directs otherwise." (Teachings, p.324)

Polygamy is not a necessity of salvation. Obedience is. And no man is permitted to have more thasn one wife unless he is commanded by God to do so.

Merely because there is not a scripture in the Old Testament that states Abraham was commanded by God to practice plural marriage does not mean he was not commanded to do so. The Doctrine and Covenants states that he was commanded to do so. That is enough for me to know that Abraham was commanded.

And it should be enough for you as well.

[_Jason Bourne]

According to the Lord's law of marriage, it is lawful that a man have only one wife at a time, unless by revelation the Lord commands plurality of wives in the new and everlasting covenant. (D&C 49:15-17.) Speaking of "the doctrine of plurality of wives," the Prophet said: "I hold the keys of this power in the last days; for there is never but one on earth at a time on whom the power and its keys are conferred; and I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time, unless the Lord directs otherwise." (Teachings, p.324)

Polygamy is not a necessity of salvation. Obedience is. And no man is permitted to have more thasn one wife unless he is commanded by God to do so.

Merely because there is not a scripture in the Old Testament that states Abraham was commanded by God to practice plural marriage does not mean he was not commanded to do so. The Doctrine and Covenants states that he was commanded to do so. That is enough for me to know that Abraham was commanded
And it should be enough for you as well.

Why should it be enough when apologists erroneously defend it be referring to the Old Testament as a basis for it. It is not the same and your comments above illustrate that you cannot defend LDS polygamy with the Old Testament. You say

Merely because there is not a scripture in the Old Testament that states Abraham was commanded by God to practice plural marriage does not mean he was not commanded to do so.

But that is an argument from silence and bears no weight. If LDS polygamy was a restoration then one would think that there would be some indication of its practice in history but there is none. LDS polygamy seems like a new approach to an old bad habit. As for obedience I am allo for it when it is rational. Once again the apologetic here is irrational. GOd said do polygamy so you do it. Well ok but we better be sure GOd really said it. Based on my studies of the way Joseph introduced and practices it initially it does not seem that very Godly, and I thus conclude that God did not command it.

Warren Jeffs believes God commanded it and is still commanding it and he even has a testimony of it. Is that good enough for you?

[_Gazelam]

If LDS polygamy was a restoration then one would think that there would be some indication of its practice in history but there is none.

Lets try this in alphabetical order:

Abdon:
A judge of Israel, possibly same as 'Bedan' By implication from number of sons...

"And he had forty sons and thirty nephews, that rode on threescore and ten ass colts: and he judged Israel eight years." Judges 12:14


Abijah:
A king of Judah. 14 Wives

"But Abijah waxed mighty, and married fourteen wives, and begat twenty and two sons, and sixteen daughters." 2 Chronicles 13:21


Abraham:

Faithful friend of God and father of the Hebrew nation. "Father of the faithful"
3 Wives - Sarah, Hagar and Keturah

"Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar." Genesis 16:1

"And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife." Genesis 16:3

"Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah." Genesis 25:1


Ahab:
A king of Israel

"Thy silver and thy gold is mine; thy wives also and thy children, even the goodliest, are mine." 1 Kings 20:3


Ashur
2 Wives, Helah and Naarah

"And Ashur the father of Tekoa had two wives, Helah and Naarah." 1 Chronicles 4:5


Caleb
5 Wives - Azubah, Jerioth, Ephrath, Ephah and Maachah

"And Caleb the son of Hezron begat children of Azubah his wife, and of Jerioth: her sons are these; Jesher, and Shobab, and Ardon. And when Azubah was dead, Caleb took unto him Ephrath, which bare him Hur." 1 Chronicles 2:18-19

"And Ephah, Caleb's concubine, " 1 Chronicles 2:46

"Maachah, Caleb's concubine, " 1 Chronicles 2:48

David
A king of Israel. "After God's own heart"
At least 18 wives - Michal, Abigail, Ahinoam of Jezreel, Eglah, Maacah, Abital, Haggith, and Bathsheba, and "10 women/concubines"

"Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife." 1 Samuel 18:27. (See also 1 Samuel 19:11-18; 25:44; and 2 Samuel 3:13-14; 6:20-23.)

"David sent and communed with Abigail, to take her to him to wife. 1 Samuel 25:39

"David also took Ahinoam of Jezreel; and they were also both of them his wives." 1 Samuel 25:43

"But Saul had given Michal his daughter, David's wife," 1 Samuel 25:44

"Absalom the son of Maacah the daughter of Talmai king of Geshur;" 2 Samuel 3:3

"And the fourth, Adonijah the son of Haggith; and the fifth, Shephatiah the son of Abital; And the sixth, Ithream, by Eglah David's wife. These were born to David in Hebron." 2 Samuel 3:4-5

"And David took him more concubines and wives" 2 Samuel 5:13, 1 Chronicles 14:3

"And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things." 2 Samuel 12:7-8

"And David comforted Bathsheba his wife..." 2 Samuel 12:24

"And the king went forth, and all his household after him. And the king left ten women, which were concubines, to keep the house." 2 Samuel 15:16. (See also 2 Samuel 16:21-23.)

Eliphaz
2 Wives, Timna

"And the sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, and Gatam, and Kenaz. And Timna was concubine to Eliphaz " Genesis 36:11-12

Elkanah
2 Wives, Hannah and Peninnah

"And he had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other Peninnah" 1 Samuel 1:2

Esau
3 Wives - Judith, Bashemath and Mahalath

"And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite:" Genesis 26:34

"Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife." Genesis 28:9


Ezra
2 Wives, Jehudijah

"And the sons of Ezra were, Jether, and Mered, and Epher, and Jalon: and she bare Miriam, and Shammai, and Ishbah the father of Eshtemoa. And his wife Jehudijah bare Jered the father of Gedor, and Heber the father of Socho, and Jekuthiel the father of Zanoah. And these are the sons of Bithiah the daughter of Pharaoh, which Mered took." 1 Chronicles 4:17-18



How long would you like me to keep going? I have about 30 more I could list. All of them righteous men of the faith, some of whom stood in the very presence of God.

But please go ahead with your assertion that polygamy is a wicked practice.

[_Inconceivable]

How long would you like me to keep going? I have about 30 more I could list. All of them righteous men of the faith, some of whom stood in the very presence of God.

But please go ahead with your assertion that polygamy is a wicked practice.

Why? Because the "Bible" says so? nuts.

Some of these men were evil incarnate. The attrocities these dirtbags committed against their neighbors (slaughtering women and even infants), I see nothing but shameful acts - including how they defined the "use" of a woman - their property.

Making an attempt to justify carnal and devilish natures as an attribute of a kind and loving good is to defy honest reason.

There is such a violent disconnect between chastity or even the Proclamation of the Family and the whoredoms these fiends committed against the human race.

[_Gazelam]

Some of these men were evil incarnate. The attrocities these dirtbags committed against their neighbors (slaughtering women and even infants), I see nothing but shameful acts - including how they defined the "use" of a woman - their property.

John 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

This leads us to:

John 8:56-59; Christ is God, and He is the one who spoke to Abraham.

If Abraham was wicked and practiced polygamy in some lascivious manner, then how could he possibly of ever stood in the presence of God himself?

[_Inconceivable]

Some of these men were evil incarnate. The attrocities these dirtbags committed against their neighbors (slaughtering women and even infants), I see nothing but shameful acts - including how they defined the "use" of a woman - their property.

John 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

This leads us to:

John 8:56-59; Christ is God, and He is the one who spoke to Abraham.

If Abraham was wicked and practiced polygamy in some lascivious manner, then how could he possibly of ever stood in the presence of God himself?

My point is that he most likely didn't. Abraham was a deadbeat dad among other things. If God appeared to him, it probably would have been to strike him with lightning. But what is the true nature of God anyway?

Did John write the book of John?

Maybe the original draft, but most likely what we now have has little resemblance - including the reference to some dead polygamist.

Who's to say Abraham had more than one wife anyway?

[_Jason Bourne]

If LDS polygamy was a restoration then one would think that there would be some indication of its practice in history but there is none.

Lets try this in alphabetical order:

Abdon:
A judge of Israel, possibly same as 'Bedan' By implication from number of sons...

"And he had forty sons and thirty nephews, that rode on threescore and ten ass colts: and he judged Israel eight years." Judges 12:14


Abijah:
A king of Judah. 14 Wives

"But Abijah waxed mighty, and married fourteen wives, and begat twenty and two sons, and sixteen daughters." 2 Chronicles 13:21


Abraham:

Faithful friend of God and father of the Hebrew nation. "Father of the faithful"
3 Wives - Sarah, Hagar and Keturah

"Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar." Genesis 16:1

"And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife." Genesis 16:3

"Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah." Genesis 25:1


Ahab:
A king of Israel

"Thy silver and thy gold is mine; thy wives also and thy children, even the goodliest, are mine." 1 Kings 20:3


Ashur
2 Wives, Helah and Naarah

"And Ashur the father of Tekoa had two wives, Helah and Naarah." 1 Chronicles 4:5


Caleb
5 Wives - Azubah, Jerioth, Ephrath, Ephah and Maachah

"And Caleb the son of Hezron begat children of Azubah his wife, and of Jerioth: her sons are these; Jesher, and Shobab, and Ardon. And when Azubah was dead, Caleb took unto him Ephrath, which bare him Hur." 1 Chronicles 2:18-19

"And Ephah, Caleb's concubine, " 1 Chronicles 2:46

"Maachah, Caleb's concubine, " 1 Chronicles 2:48

David
A king of Israel. "After God's own heart"
At least 18 wives - Michal, Abigail, Ahinoam of Jezreel, Eglah, Maacah, Abital, Haggith, and Bathsheba, and "10 women/concubines"

"Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife." 1 Samuel 18:27. (See also 1 Samuel 19:11-18; 25:44; and 2 Samuel 3:13-14; 6:20-23.)

"David sent and communed with Abigail, to take her to him to wife. 1 Samuel 25:39

"David also took Ahinoam of Jezreel; and they were also both of them his wives." 1 Samuel 25:43

"But Saul had given Michal his daughter, David's wife," 1 Samuel 25:44

"Absalom the son of Maacah the daughter of Talmai king of Geshur;" 2 Samuel 3:3

"And the fourth, Adonijah the son of Haggith; and the fifth, Shephatiah the son of Abital; And the sixth, Ithream, by Eglah David's wife. These were born to David in Hebron." 2 Samuel 3:4-5

"And David took him more concubines and wives" 2 Samuel 5:13, 1 Chronicles 14:3

"And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things." 2 Samuel 12:7-8

"And David comforted Bathsheba his wife..." 2 Samuel 12:24

"And the king went forth, and all his household after him. And the king left ten women, which were concubines, to keep the house." 2 Samuel 15:16. (See also 2 Samuel 16:21-23.)

Eliphaz
2 Wives, Timna

"And the sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, and Gatam, and Kenaz. And Timna was concubine to Eliphaz " Genesis 36:11-12

Elkanah
2 Wives, Hannah and Peninnah

"And he had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other Peninnah" 1 Samuel 1:2

Esau
3 Wives - Judith, Bashemath and Mahalath

"And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite:" Genesis 26:34

"Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife." Genesis 28:9


Ezra
2 Wives, Jehudijah

"And the sons of Ezra were, Jether, and Mered, and Epher, and Jalon: and she bare Miriam, and Shammai, and Ishbah the father of Eshtemoa. And his wife Jehudijah bare Jered the father of Gedor, and Heber the father of Socho, and Jekuthiel the father of Zanoah. And these are the sons of Bithiah the daughter of Pharaoh, which Mered took." 1 Chronicles 4:17-18



How long would you like me to keep going? I have about 30 more I could list. All of them righteous men of the faith, some of whom stood in the very presence of God.



You still have failed. You did not do as asked. There is nothing in religous history that commands polygamy like it is in the D&C and was in 19th century LDS doctrine-a requirement for exaltation.

I am not arguing that God did not make concessions for this cultural practice thousands of years ago. It is clear that there were concessions. But there is nothing no command of it. None. It seems more that God tolerated it.
But please go ahead with your assertion that polygamy is a wicked practice.