The Importance of Claiming an "Unpaid Clergy"

[_Buffalo]

I'd say it's quite safe to assert that the LDS Church has no paid ministry

Sure, as long as you ignore these guys (plus mission and temple presidents):

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/media/attachments/53.pdf

Which is what most apologists do, I admit.

[_bcspace]

I'd say it's quite safe to assert that the LDS Church has no paid ministry

Sure, as long as you ignore these guys (plus mission and temple presidents):

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/media/attachments/53.pdf

Which is what most apologists do, I admit.

Actually, it seems to be more a case of you ignoring what I said in my last post as "those guys" are not on the ward or stake level.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Nobody is ignoring the General Authorities.

In my understanding, gold is considered pure (and 24 karat) at 999 parts of gold per 1000.

By the time you figure up the number of area authority seventies, stake presidents, district presidents, counselors in stake presidencies, counselors in district presidencies, bishops, counselors in bishoprics, and etc. -- not to mention all of the missionaries! -- and make that the denominator, and then put in the General Authorities and the mission presidents as the numerator, I suspect that you'll get a figure rather reminiscent of that 1/1000 exception for pure gold.

Try the same exercise with any number of other things:

Spain is a Catholic country, right? Right. Meaning no non-Catholics? No. Not at all. And it would be misleading to say that it's a country divided between Catholics and Protestants.

Iran is a Shi‘ite country. Yes. Overwhelmingly. But not entirely. And it would be a distortion to rail against somebody who says it is a Shi'ite country, claiming that, instead, it's a Shi'ite/Baha‘i country.

Space is a vacuum. Yes indeed. But there is matter in it. So, is it a lie to call it a vacuum?

Try holding out for absolutely pure water. You'll die within a few days.

[_Buffalo]

Actually, it seems to be more a case of you ignoring what I said in my last post as "those guys" are not on the ward or stake level.

What difference does that make? These are the most important clergy in the church - and they're definitely paid.

[_madeleine]

Clergy is by definition those ordained. Since every Mormon male is ordained, every Mormon male is a member of the clergy?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Clergy is by definition those ordained. Since every Mormon male is ordained, every Mormon male is a member of the clergy?

Very true, in an important sense.

Which means that there are many hundreds of thousands of unpaid clergy in the Church, along with perhaps three or four hundred temporarily-paid clergy, and an even smaller number who, having served unpaid for decades, finish off their lives in full-time service, drawing a stipend.

CES instructors don't teach as a function of their ordinations -- if they've been ordained. (There are many hundreds if not thousands of female CES instructors. None of them have been ordained. A small handful of them are paid.) One of my neighbors is an Institute teacher. He and I have been ordained to precisely the same offices in the priesthood. Another neighbor teaches Institute, as well. She hasn't been ordained to any priesthood office.

[_madeleine]

Clergy is by definition those ordained. Since every Mormon male is ordained, every Mormon male is a member of the clergy?

Very true, in an important sense.

Which means that there are many hundreds of thousands of unpaid clergy in the Church, along with perhaps three or four hundred temporarily-paid clergy, and an even smaller number who, having served unpaid for decades, finish off their lives in full-time service, drawing a stipend.

CES instructors don't teach as a function of their ordinations -- if they've been ordained. (There are many hundreds if not thousands of female CES instructors. None of them have been ordained. A small handful of them are paid.) One of my neighbors is an Institute teacher. He and I have been ordained to precisely the same offices in the priesthood.

Yes, which would make it a very practical matter to not pay Mormon clergy.

I agree that CES instructors aren't clergy, by their function or duties. I view them as ministers, but I don't know if that is the Mormon view.

wikipedia definition of minister:

a minister is someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs

[_Daniel Peterson]

We wouldn't use the term minister -- we don't even use it for our "clergy" -- but I can see how and why one might.

[_madeleine]

We wouldn't use the term minister -- we don't even use it for our "clergy" -- but I can see how and why one might.

OK.

Why? (Just curious.)

[_bcspace]

Actually, it seems to be more a case of you ignoring what I said in my last post as "those guys" are not on the ward or stake level.

What difference does that make? These are the most important clergy in the church - and they're definitely paid.

Yet they don't minister at the ward and stake level where 99.999999% of it takes places. We do indeed have an unpaid ministry,