The gnat-strainer prize.

[_Drifting]

Log,
Where is the proof that it only took 6 months to produce the Book of Mormon? Joseph started talking about the plates in 1824 and the book was finally published in 1830. That is 6 years. Can I not make the argument that he had 6 years in which to develop the narrative of the Book of Mormon in order to perpetuate fraud?

6 years to write a novel is hardly miraculous. Can I have 6 years in which to write? July 9, 2018?

Can I demonstrably plagiarize large chunks of the Old Testament and New Testament? Can I also borrow religious, philosophical and other ideas from other writings?

And can you have several, well educated helpers, some of whom have intimate knowledge of another book with a very similar story line to the one you're going to write?

[_Darth J]

I was asked to cite my answer to an old chestnut against the church that I felt had been long answered; OK, I'll go as far back as Nov. 1831, D & C Sec. 67. In that, Joseph wrote how people had been "watching" him; finding fault with his revelations, criticizing his language. His revealed reply: (vs. 6-8): "Now, seek ye out of the Book of Commandments, even the least that is among them, and appoint him that is the most wise among you; or, if there be any among you that shall make one like unto it, then ye are justified in saying that ye do not know that they are true; but if ye cannot make one like unto it, ye are under condemnation if ye do not bear record that they are true." It's fine as it stands, but let's make a challenge out of it: let's see you produce the equivalent of a Book of Mormon in 6 months time. You're better educated than Joseph was, you may use a computer with spell check, dictionary, and all the writing bells and whistles. If you think Joseph wrote the Book of Mormon rather than translated it by the gift and power of God, it ought to be easy for you to come up with an equivalent novel. Go ahead; let's see you do it, and I won't even discount the advantages you already have. I'm going to be blunt, here: put up or shut up. 6 months. July 9, 2012. I'm waiting.

You forgot to give me a gullible, superstitious Yankee farmer to bankroll me while I do that.

Nevertheless, you are in luck, Logjamislds! As it turns out, you are not the first person on this board to throw down this particular gauntlet, and I accepted the challenge. In this thread:

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... =1&t=16995

everyone was challenged to produce a narrative comparable to the first 3,000 words of the Book of Mormon. I produced a work comparable to the first 3,000 words of the Book of Mormon in a couple of hours.

But guess what? The Koran issues us the same challenge as D&C 67!

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/perfection_01.html

Do they say, "He has invented it"? Say: "Then produce a sura like it and call on anyone you can besides Allah if you are telling the truth." (Qur'an, 10:38)

One of the reasons that the Qur'an is described as miraculous stems from the fact that, as emphasized in the verses above, nothing like it can ever be written by human endeavour: The greater the scale of that impossibility, the greater the size of the miracle which we see before our very eyes. Therefore, the fact that the style of the Qur'an has been incapable of imitation by even one out of the billions of people down the centuries is one of the proofs of its miraculous nature.

That means that the Koran is the word of God, too! So it should be part of the Standard Works!

And the Koran was produced by a person who was (allegedly) barely literate! Just like the Book of Mormon! http://islamtomorrow.com/proofs/

And I have even more good news about the D&C 67 challenge! There is at this moment a man in Texas (on an involuntary basis) named Warren Jeffs who is producing revelations like unto those in the Book of Commandments! This isn't online, so I can't link to it, but I do have a hardcopy of his most recent revelations. Here is one of them to give you an idea of what he says that is like unto the Book of Commandments:

Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ Given to President Warren S. Jeffs
Palestine, Texas
Thursday, December 8, 2011

1. Thus saith Jesus Christ, God over all, who hath overcome all things, and sits with His Father on eternal power throne forever, saying to all peoples on earth:
2. I now reveal soon happening, a great tempest of powerful storm over Northern Europe of devastating result.
3. Repent ye, for I shall fulfill my word.
4. Also a Turkey national power broken up; also Lichtenstein as a country humbled; let all be repenting.
5. Let all be ready for my glorious coming, saith Jesus Christ. Amen.
6. Now let Asia feel my wrath for their continued sins; floods, earthquake in populated area of great sea power; sea swallowing up coastal cities; tsunami of power on East Asia coasts; great hailstorms destroying crops; disease, to greater degree, in areas of the land of Europe, in Thailand, Singapore, in Burma and Laos; war throughout the earth; mob rule in Moslem nations; the Latin American nations of new scourge of insects, also diseases; all nations in great upheaval of war, famine, earthquake, diseases also.
7. Let all peoples repent lest few remain at my coming. Amen.
8. Let people of North America now feel great devastating storm; also earthquake in major city and population area; soon war; also new diseases, and pestilences of famine, also insects, plant diseases; trade and commerce of an overthrow; hunger, mobs, leaders of nations fearful in their own lands; all things in commotion, to prepare the way of my glorious appearing, saith God, even Jesus Christ, Son Ahman to all peoples.
9. You continue in gross heinous crimes.
10. You have of murder of unborn children, of sorcery of drug of degrading way among all nations; adultery, fornication, Sodom; also many secret combinations of violent powers in many nations.
11. These evils must be blotted out from among your peoples, or I shall send my own judgments to sweep the wicked off the earth.
12. O that ye would repent, is the call of thy God to all peoples. Amen.
13. Let Spain be humbled for not heeding my word.
14. Let also Italy be most empty.
15. Let the Netherlands be as a desolate place in many areas.
16. Let all peoples feel my anger of just holy way, to humble all nations.
17. Let all peoples come unto me, your Lord, through my holy authority on earth, my Priesthood, Church, and Kingdom among men.
18. Let there be the great war of Armageddon take place if nations will not cease murder of unborn children and immoral ways.
19. When I appear, such things shall be of capital punishment, as my Zion rises to rule over all nations.
20. Let also China and Russia be humbling nations against other nations, then be humbled themselves.
21. Let United States of America feel full weight of judgments of God upon them if they heed not my own word sent to you; yea, my many warnings I have sent to leaders and peoples of all nations.
22. Let thy walk center around my coming, also obedience to my Gospel plan of salvation, to purify your lives through faith unto repentance.
23. Let my glorious appearing startle the wicked, and cause the more righteous to rejoice.
24. Let holy power Celestial descend to earth with you Lord and Just King of Eternal Power come upon all peoples to prepare the way before me. Amen.

For more words of the prophet Warren Jeffs, contact Vaughn E. Taylor, PO Box 1708, Colorado City, AZ 86021-1708.

But wait: there's more! We also have the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon, which is substantially longer than the original Book of Mormon! http://www.thesealedportion.com/tsp/index.htm

Thanks for your definitive answer to an old chestnut against the Church, Logjamislds! Do you have any more?

(As a side note, I might point out the faulty premise in your challenge. Even, for argument's sake, granting that Joseph Smith could not have written the Book of Mormon himself (a premise that I do not grant), if the book is not what it claims to be, then it doesn't really matter who did write it. It only matters that non-existent ancient Nephite prophets did not write it.)

[_Fence Sitter]

Log,
Where is the proof that it only took 6 months to produce the Book of Mormon? Joseph started talking about the plates in 1824 and the book was finally published in 1830. That is 6 years. Can I not make the argument that he had 6 years in which to develop the narrative of the Book of Mormon in order to perpetuate fraud?

6 years to write a novel is hardly miraculous. Can I have 6 years in which to write? July 9, 2018?

Can I demonstrably plagiarize large chunks of the Old Testament and New Testament? Can I also borrow religious, philosophical and other ideas from other writings?

From Lucy Mack Smith Biography we learn he had a lot of the story already fleshed out long before he started to write the Book of Mormon.

From Lucy's 1845 manuscript, we read:

Now said he[,] Father and Mother the angel of the Lord says that we must be careful not to proclaim these things or to mention them abroad For we do not any of us know the wickedness of the world which is so sinful that when we get the plates they will want to kill us for the sake of the gold if they know we had <have> them...by sunset [we] were ready to be seated and give our atten undivided attention to Josephs recitals...From this time forth Joseph continued to receive instructions from time to time and every evening we gathered our children togather [together]...In the course of our evening conversations Joseph would give us some of the most ammusing [amusing] recitals which could be immagined [imagined]. he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent their dress their man[n]er of traveling the animals which they rode The cities that were built by them the structure of their buildings with every particular of their mode of warfare their religious worship as particularly as though he had spent his life with them...The angel informed him at one time that he might make an effort to obtain the plates <on> the <22nd of the> ensueing september..

[_logjamislds]

OK; from J.S.H., vs. 67, he states that he and Oliver Cowdery commenced translating the Book on April 7, 1829. It was first published in 1830. I may have been off on my "3 months", but he wasn't engaged in the translation 24/7; he had to take some time off to move and avoid persecution, but, OK: I'll give you a full year. Better get busy. I first suggest you find 11 people to swear they have seen the sources from which you'll write your book; in addition, 3 of them must bear witness that they had an angel from God declare the truthfulness of your project to them, and, though they later wind up estranged from you and your organization, none will ever deny they had such experiences. (Personally, I doubt you could do it in 6 years, or even in a lifetime. I've written a book that is about 40% the size of the Book of Mormon; I spent decades gathering material for it, then 6 years organizing the material, writing, re-writing, editing, adding new material and on and on. Those who have never written a book have no idea of the work that goes into it. It's much easier and quicker to translate one by the power of God, as Joseph did.) So: ball's still in your court. Put up or shut up.

[_Drifting]

OK; from J.S.H., vs. 67, he states that he and Oliver Cowdery commenced translating the Book on April 7, 1829. It was first published in 1830. I may have been off on my "3 months", but he wasn't engaged in the translation 24/7; he had to take some time off to move and avoid persecution, but, OK: I'll give you a full year. Better get busy. I first suggest you find 11 people to swear they have seen the sources from which you'll write your book; in addition, 3 of them must bear witness that they had an angel from God declare the truthfulness of your project to them, and, though they later wind up estranged from you and your organization, none will ever deny they had such experiences. (Personally, I doubt you could do it in 6 years, or even in a lifetime. I've written a book that is about 40% the size of the Book of Mormon; I spent decades gathering material for it, then 6 years organizing the material, writing, re-writing, editing, adding new material and on and on. Those who have never written a book have no idea of the work that goes into it. It's much easier and quicker to translate one by the power of God, as Joseph did.) So: ball's still in your court. Put up or shut up.

Logjam,

Why are the witnesses relevant?
What I mean is, why does the fact the 11 people testify that the Book of Mormon is true, make it true? I'll bet that Jenn Kamp Rowling could get 12 people to testify that the stories about Harry Potter are true - does that mean they are?
Also, you don't know that they didn't refute their testimony. Just because there is no evidence to back that up doesn't mean they didn't say "aha, just kidding, it's a pile of bunk". Or do you think absence of evidence IS evidence of absence?

[_subgenius]

Logjam,

Why are the witnesses relevant?

too absurd to answer

What I mean is, why does the fact the 11 people testify that the Book of Mormon is true, make it true?

i don't think logjam implied that, but more so about the "task" of getting such an endorsement in the context of the day.

I'll bet that Jenn Kamp Rowling could get 12 people to testify that the stories about Harry Potter are true - does that mean they are?

But she did not get 12 people, for the obvious reasons.....and your point is irrelevant.

Or do you think absence of evidence IS evidence of absence?

your conclusion is not reasonable.

[_Drifting]

Logjam,

Why are the witnesses relevant?

too absurd to answer

What I mean is, why does the fact the 11 people testify that the Book of Mormon is true, make it true?

i don't think logjam implied that, but more so about the "task" of getting such an endorsement in the context of the day.

I'll bet that Jenn Kamp Rowling could get 12 people to testify that the stories about Harry Potter are true - does that mean they are?

But she did not get 12 people, for the obvious reasons.....and your point is irrelevant.

Or do you think absence of evidence IS evidence of absence?

your conclusion is not reasonable.

Subby old boy, thanks for the response.
Jenn Kamp didn't because she wasn't trying to pretend it was true...

I'm still interested in why:
A. You think the opinion of 11 people Trump's all other verifiable evidence.
And
B. You don't believe everything these witnesses testified.

[_SteelHead]

OK; from J.S.H., vs. 67, he states that he and Oliver Cowdery commenced translating the Book on April 7, 1829. It was first published in 1830. I may have been off on my "3 months", but he wasn't engaged in the translation 24/7; he had to take some time off to move and avoid persecution, but, OK: I'll give you a full year. Better get busy. I first suggest you find 11 people to swear they have seen the sources from which you'll write your book; in addition, 3 of them must bear witness that they had an angel from God declare the truthfulness of your project to them, and, though they later wind up estranged from you and your organization, none will ever deny they had such experiences. (Personally, I doubt you could do it in 6 years, or even in a lifetime. I've written a book that is about 40% the size of the Book of Mormon; I spent decades gathering material for it, then 6 years organizing the material, writing, re-writing, editing, adding new material and on and on. Those who have never written a book have no idea of the work that goes into it. It's much easier and quicker to translate one by the power of God, as Joseph did.) So: ball's still in your court. Put up or shut up.

Does the "sealed portion of the Book of Mormon" book not meet this criteria?

[_logjamislds]

You're just trying to weasel out of writing the book. One year left, minus a couple days. The ball is still in your court; put up or shut up.

[_SteelHead]

I'll tell you what. You support me at my current salary level, plus benefits for the year and I will produce your book. Otherwise I still offer the sealed portion for meeting your challenge. It even has testimonies to support it, and a testimony by another name is a witness.

I warn you though I am not cheap.