Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_son of Ishmael]

Well, gdemetz, since what I post is far and away the position of Christians around the world and the Mormon Church is not viewed as a Christian church I will have to stick with the designation. It wasn't so many years ago that Mormonism did not want to be identified under the banner "Christian" much preferring the term Mormon. I supposes with the softening of Mormon doctrine and the apparent efforts by the Mormon Church to appear mainstream the term Christian has more appeal to it nowadays. It will have to shed a great deal more of its bizarre doctrine before it can truly be termed a Christian church. One just has to look at how the fundamentalist Mormons practice more closely the Mormonism of Smith's day than the Salt Lake church to see how far it has come. I am hopeful that one day the Mormon Church will preach sufficiency in Christ Jesus as the only hope for full salvation.

Agree. Joseph Smith and BY would be much more happier down in Colorado City than in Salt Lake City today.

[_gdemetz]

They are not true Christians, Albion, except in their own minds as you are! They have virtually nothing in common with the church Christ set up; not even the first basic steps! Their baptisms, if done, are often not done properly, and they are done without restored authority! they don't even so much as try to copy the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost! I could write a book about how different apostate Christendom is from the church Christ set up! He absolutely would not recognize it if He came back today! You hypocrites claim the Bible as your authority, but you no more understand it than the man in the moon! Furthermore, your gross spiritual blindness amazes me! Even when I give you a plain simple verse in the Bible which a little child could understand, you can't! You try to twist the meaning of it to fit your own perverted and apostate views! THAT IS WHY A "RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS WAS NEEDED!!!

[_Albion]

If bearing a kind of testimony makes you feel better, gdemetz, have at it.

[_gdemetz]

It is not just my testimony, Albion, it is what was taught and practiced, even by Christ, in the New Testament! There were no altar calls given in the Bible!

[_Albion]

gdemetz, usually Mormons resort to "bearing their testimony" when they run out of debate. You persist in the "altar call" issue. An altar call is simply a call to repentance and an invite to follow Christ...a process demonstrated frequently in the New Testament. Tell me, since you are trying to be clever in using it as a prod......where did Jesus use water in the communion? Is that from the New Testament? There is far more support in the New Testament for the general idea of invitations to Jesus than there is for water in the communion.

[_Franktalk]

gdemetz, usually Mormons resort to "bearing their testimony" when they run out of debate. You persist in the "altar call" issue. An altar call is simply a call to repentance and an invite to follow Christ...a process demonstrated frequently in the New Testament. Tell me, since you are trying to be clever in using it as a prod......where did Jesus use water in the communion? Is that from the New Testament? There is far more support in the New Testament for the general idea of invitations to Jesus than there is for water in the communion.

I also question the water instead of the wine. But there is support for this change.

1 John 5
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

So the witness on the earth is water and not wine. So the use of water is more appropriate than wine.

[_madeleine]

gdemetz, usually Mormons resort to "bearing their testimony" when they run out of debate. You persist in the "altar call" issue. An altar call is simply a call to repentance and an invite to follow Christ...a process demonstrated frequently in the New Testament. Tell me, since you are trying to be clever in using it as a prod......where did Jesus use water in the communion? Is that from the New Testament? There is far more support in the New Testament for the general idea of invitations to Jesus than there is for water in the communion.

I also question the water instead of the wine. But there is support for this change.

1 John 5
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

So the witness on the earth is water and not wine. So the use of water is more appropriate than wine.

why leave out verse 6?

This is the one who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is true.

This is speaking to Jesus' Sacrifice and baptism. What ties His Blood to wine is:

John 6:53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

and

Matthew 26:27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you,
28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
29 I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.”

[_Albion]

I am not sure what the scriptures quoted have to do with substituting water for wine in the communion especially in view of the avowed legalism of the Mormon position.

[_madeleine]

I am not sure what the scriptures quoted have to do with substituting water for wine in the communion especially in view of the avowed legalism of the Mormon position.

I thought it was their Word of Wisdom, prohibiting the consumption of alcohol that brought about the change.

[_Albion]

Many churches use pure grape juice perhaps as a concession to alcoholics and to American puritanism. That shouldn't be a problem for Mormons since in my experience many argue, wrongly I think, that the wine that Jesus drank was just grape juice anyway. My experience is that there is something more starkly symbolic in the blood redness of a wine or grape juice filled cup than in one filled with water.