No proof for Melchizedek Priesthood for LDS

[_Albion]

Excuse me for posting...I was under the mistaken impression that the thread was entitled "No proof for Melchizedec Priesthood for LDS". So far, you've confirmed the premise.

[_Tobin]

Excuse me for posting...I was under the mistaken impression that the thread was entitled "No proof for Melchizedec Priesthood for LDS". So far, you've confirmed the premise.

Try re-reading that title over and over and - see the LDS part. There is plenty of proof. You just have know what you are talking about in the first place.

[_iamse7en]

Quinn had a great discussion about this in Origins. There are several mentions of authority and apostleship before 1834, but they are specifically connected to vision or evangelical experiences, not angelic administration or restoration of priesthood. And yet, despite many claims of vision, angels, and significant evangelical experiences from hundreds outside of Joseph's movement, a December 1830 newspaper report does mention that "Cowdry claims that he and his associates are the only persons on earth who are qualified to administer in his name" ("The Book of Mormon," Painesville Telegraph, 7 Dec 1830, p. 3). Why would he claim this? Many highlighting this 4-5 year gap of silence use it to say Cowdery and Smith conspired and conjured to fill the gaps in their story, yet the claim to exclusive authority is already there - they just never said why until later:

In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owing to a spirit of persecution which had already been manifested in the neighborhood. (History of the Church 1:43-44; "entirely secret" in the first draft of this history)

And then the date of the Melchizedek Priesthood provides even more polarization. To the believers, it is evidence that their story is not conspired and conjured; because if so, they would have fabricated such a date. To the skeptics, it is evidence of either negligence or reverse psychology. Either way, people have their choice or gift (or "burden" as Quinn sometimes calls it) to believe or not. Quinn narrows down the date to be around July 6, 1830.

[_ludwigm]

I think you are changing the discussion. Do you believe that Moses and Elijah held the Melchizedec Priesthood...have you, as a Mormon, been ordained to the MP? We are discussing the actual MP not some loosely described authorization. Any believer can act with authority...I believe that...but certainly none, not you, not Moses, not Elijah held the MP. There is only one holder of the MP today and he sits at the right hand of God exercising that priesthood as the high priest for all believers.

Of coures Moses and Elijah had the Melchizedec Priesthood. In fact, they had all of God's priesthood (or authority) to do what they did. Without it, they wouldn't have been able to do that. And the Melchizedec Priesthood is merely an order of the priesthood. It does not represent all of God's authority. It is an order after the Son of God. And just because I or Moses or Elijah belong to the same order (think of it as a club), that doesn't mean we have the same standing before the Lord. The only indication that I (or anyone) really holds that authority is if we can do similar things to what Moses, Elijah and Jesus Christ did in the name of God. These are the gifts of the spirit that show you who really represents God.

I don't understand, why do you people always forget Elias. According to Joseph he is as important as Moses, Elijah and Jesus Christ.
Didn't You read D&C 110? The sequence they appeared was Jesus, Moses, Elias, Elijah.

[_Mittens]

Hebrews 7:

4 See then how great this Melchizedek is: (a) Even Abraham, the first and most honored of all God’s chosen people, gave Melchizedek a tenth of the spoils he took from the kings he had been fighting.
5 One could understand why Abraham would do this if Melchizedek had been a Jewish priest, for later on God’s people were required by law to give gifts to help their priests because the priests were their relatives.
6 But Melchizedek was not a relative, and yet Abraham paid him. (b) Melchizedek placed a blessing upon mighty Abraham,
7 and as everyone knows, a person who has the power to bless is always greater than the person he blesses.
8 (c) The Jewish priests, though mortal, received tithes; but we are told that Melchizedek lives on.
9 (d) One might even say that Levi himself (the ancestor of all Jewish priests, of all who receive tithes), paid tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham.
10 For although Levi wasn’t born yet, the seed from which he came was in Abraham when Abraham paid the tithes to Melchizedek.
11 (e) If the Jewish priests and their laws had been able to save us, why then did God need to send Christ as a priest with the rank of Melchizedek, instead of sending someone with the rank of Aaron—the same rank all other priests had?
12-14 And when God sends a new kind of priest, his law must be changed to permit it. As we all know, Christ did not belong to the priest-tribe of Levi, but came from the tribe of Judah, which had not been chosen for priesthood; Moses had never given them that work.
15 So we can plainly see that God’s method changed, for Christ, the new High Priest who came with the rank of Melchizedek,
16 did not become a priest by meeting the old requirement of belonging to the tribe of Levi, but on the basis of power flowing from a life that cannot end.
17 And the psalmist points this out when he says of Christ, “You are a priest forever with the rank of Melchizedek.”
18 Yes, the old system of priesthood based on family lines was canceled because it didn’t work. It was weak and useless for saving people.
19 It never made anyone really right with God. But now we have a far better hope, for Christ makes us acceptable to God, and now we may draw near to him.
20 God took an oath that Christ would always be a Priest,
21 although he never said that of other priests. Only to Christ he said, “The Lord has sworn and will never change his mind: You are a Priest forever, with the rank of Melchizedek.”
22 Because of God’s oath, Christ can guarantee forever the success of this new and better arrangement.
23 Under the old arrangement there had to be many priests so that when the older ones died off, the system could still be carried on by others who took their places.
24 But Jesus lives forever and continues to be a Priest so that no one else is needed.
25 He is able to save completely all who come to God through him. Since he will live forever, he will always be there to remind God that he has paid for their sins with his blood.
26 He is, therefore, exactly the kind of High Priest we need; for he is holy and blameless, unstained by sin, undefiled by sinners, and to him has been given the place of honor in heaven.
27 He never needs the daily blood of animal sacrifices, as other priests did, to cover over first their own sins and then the sins of the people; for he finished all sacrifices, once and for all, when he sacrificed himself on the cross.
28 Under the old system, even the high priests were weak and sinful men who could not keep from doing wrong, but later God appointed by his oath his Son who is perfect forever.

[Guest]

Mittens,
Why do you insist on Cutting and Pasting large sections of text?
I know your pasting is relevant to the topic... But its rather dull, there is no individual commentary,
and I cannot TROLL, I mean have a decent discussion with you.

I am no longer a TBM.
However, I do think, no matter how bizarre, Joseph Smith has at least tried to explain how he got the priesthood.
Unlike any other Christian denomination, sect.

PS: I forgot to add... Is that the Mittens and kittens children's Bible?

[_Mittens]

Mittens,
Why do you insist on Cutting and Pasting large sections of text?
I know your pasting is relevant to the topic... But its rather dull, there is no individual commentary,
and I cannot TROLL, I mean have a decent discussion with you.

I am no longer a TBM.
However, I do think, no matter how bizarre, Joseph Smith has at least tried to explain how he got the priesthood.
Unlike any other Christian denomination, sect.

According to the text I posted only Jesus holds the Melchizedek Priesthood , where in the Bible does anyone elso hold it ?

[_SteelHead]

Melchizedek?

[_ldsfaqs]

2 can play this game....

Criticism

Critics claim that the restoration of the priesthood was "back dated" later by Joseph Smith to justify his desire to dominate the Church.
Critics claim that no one seems to know "when or how" Joseph Smith received the Melchizedek priesthood.
See also: Citations to the critical sources for these claims

Conclusion

When all the circumstantial evidence is studied, the approximate time of the Melchizedek priesthood' restoration can be plausibly narrowed down. Although the exact date is not known, the window that is known is small enough to preclude a later fabrication of events by the Prophet to "increase his authority."

Supporting Data

Although historical documents do not give an exact date for the restoration of the Melchizedek priesthood we can pinpoint its occurrence to a 17 day window between the 15 and 31 of May, 1829.

Aaronic Priesthood

Joseph learned from Moroni in 1823 that “when [the golden plates] are interpreted the Lord will give the holy priesthood to some, and they shall begin to proclaim this gospel and baptize by water, and after that they shall have power to give the Holy Ghost by the laying on of their hands.”[1] Two years later the first part of that pronouncement occurred when John the Baptist visited Joseph and Oliver:
He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, but that this should be conferred on us hereafter...The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us...It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized.[2] We know that the Melchizedek priesthood therefore had not yet been given and must be given either later that day or sometime following that day.
Joseph and Oliver Cowdery were told to re-ordain each other to the priesthood after being baptized. This was to follow proper rules of being a member before receiving the priesthood, but in their case they couldn't become members until having the priesthood to baptize each other.[3]

Melchizedek Priesthood

Similar to this origination complication of baptism and membership, the ordination to the office of Elder via the higher priesthood could not occur until the church had been established. After the church was officially established we have the following evidences that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery had already received the higher priesthood:
Aug 1830, the Lord spoke to the Prophet Joseph Smith of “Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them.” DC 27:12
Apr 1830, “And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand.” DC 20:2-3
“Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery sought after this higher authority, and the Lord gave it to them, before the rise of this Church, sending to them Peter, James and John. What for? To bestow upon them the Apostleship.” -Elder Parley P. Pratt [4]
Hiram Page, a son-in-law of Peter Whitmer Sr., and one who was present on the day of the Church’s 6 April 1830 organization, later confirmed that “Peter, James and John” had come and bestowed the Holy Priesthood “before the 6th of April 1830.” [5]
“I know that Joseph received his Apostleship from Peter, James, and John, before a revelation on the subject was printed, and he never had a right to organize a Church before he was an Apostle.” -Brigham Young [6]

Narrow Window

Knowing that the prophet already had the Melchizedek priesthood prior to the organization of the church we can look at the following clues of the May 15 to 30, 1829 ordination window in order of progressively narrowed parameters:
Year 1829: There is a manuscript in Oliver Cowdery’s handwriting recording part of DC 18: saying, “Written in the year of our Lord & Saviour 1829.” [7]
June 1829: In DC 18:9 we read “And now, Oliver Cowdery, I speak unto you, and also unto David Whitmer, by the way of commandment; for, behold, I command all men everywhere to repent, and I speak unto you, even as unto Paul mine apostle, for you are called even with that same calling with which he was called.”
Before June 14, 1829: Oliver Cowdery wrote a letter to Hyrum Smith. The letter has some wording that quotes and refers to section 18 in the D&C. [8]
Before June 1, 1829:
Joseph Smith said that he, Emma, Oliver and David Whitmer traveled to the home of Peter Whitmer Sr. “In the beginning of the month of June.” [9]
David Whitmer is quoted as saying “The translation at my father’s farm, Fayette Township, Seneca County, New York occupied about one month, that is from June 1, to July 1, 1829.” [10] If those dates are exact then the Prophet was in New York during the entire month of June.
Orson Pratt asked David Whitmer, “Can you tell the date of the bestowal of the Apostleship upon Joseph, by Peter, James and John?” To which he replied: “I do not know, Joseph never told me.” From this we can tell that the visitation either:
Happened during the traveling when Joseph and Oliver were away from David and did not tell him about the occurrence (their trusted friend with whom they shared many other events).
Happened at another time than their travel from Harmony to Fayette.

Location

Critics also raise the issue of where the Melchizedek priesthood restoration occurred.
The bestowal of the Melchizedek priesthood occurred in Harmony, Pennsylvania. [11] The time of travel between Harmony, PA and the Whitmer farm would have been three days. The likely hood of the men traveling back to Harmony at the same time as they did the following is near impossible:
Finished the translation
Secured the copyright on June 11
Oliver's letter to Hyrum on June 14
Joseph's details of how busy they were during this time period at the farm [12]
As shown above, after receiving the priesthood they were not yet allowed to ordain each other to the offices within that priesthood. They were told to “defer this our ordination until such times as it should be practicable to have our brethren, who had been and who should be baptized, assembled together, when we must have their sanction to our proceeding to ordain each other.” [13]
There are many times[14] when Oliver confirmed without error that the sequence of events occurred as shown above.[15]

Other early mentions

Some have claimed that Joseph only began to mention apostolic ordination to the priesthood several years after the Church's organization. This claim is belied by the fact that in March of 1833, the Reverend Richmond Taggart wrote a letter to a ministerial friend, regarding the activities of Joseph Smith himself in Ohio: "The following Curious occurrance occurred last week in Newburg [Ohio] about 6 miles from this Place [Cleveland]. Joe Smith the great Mormonosity was there and held forth, and among other things he told them he had seen Jesus Christ and the Apostles and conversed with them, and that he could perform Miracles."[16]
Here, then, is a clear reference to Joseph Smith stating he had seen Jesus Christ. Joseph’s ‘conversations’ with the Apostles could be a reference to having seen, spoken to, and been ordained to the Priesthood by the early Apostles Peter, James, and John. Having received that Priesthood Joseph Smith was now qualified to perform healings, and other ‘miracles’.

[_ldsfaqs]

In conclusion....

There is plenty of "proof" that the Melchizedek Priesthood was restored.
What there isn't of is "proof" of the EXACT DATE it was done.

Anti-mormons, please start being honest and accurate for a change! :(