The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A Biblical Approach

[_sr1030]

Yes, my previous post to you on the subject.

sr

You'll have to forgive me, but I'm participating in several threads right now that all have about the same basic topics. Would you mind linking me to that post?

I don't know how to link to it, but it is on page 2 of this thread and contains this:


Megacles wrote:
We believe there is one God, one son/savior, and one holy spirit, just as traditional Christians do.

sr wrote:
You should not have said this. It is completely false. LDS believe in many Gods. This is evident through their historical teachings. Do you really want quotes? You already know this and I don't understand why you would say something so patently false.

And you did not represent traditional Christians either. They believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as One God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, One God. Not at all like LDS.

I am sure linking is easy, I just haven't been here long enough to have done it yet.

sr

[_maklelan]

I don't know how to link to it,

Highlight the text you want to hyperlink and then click the URL button above the message field. That will insert an opening and a closing "url" in brackets around the text. In the first, which looks like this: [url], type a "=" between the url and the closing bracket and then copy and paste the url after the "=."

but it is on page 2 of this thread and contains this:

[i][b]Megacles wrote:
We believe there is one God, one son/savior, and one holy spirit, just as traditional Christians do.

sr wrote:
You should not have said this. It is completely false.

It's not completely false. For Latter-day Saints, no other deities matter, so they effectively believe in one God the Father, in one Son of God, and in one Holy Ghost. This is identical to Paul's statement in 1 Cor 8:4-6. "For us there is one God." If you claim you only believe in one God but still acknowledge angels, demons, and satan, than you cannot deny Latter-day Saints the same right. The instant you do, you undermine your own monotheism.

LDS believe in many Gods. This is evident through their historical teachings. Do you really want quotes? You already know this and I don't understand why you would say something so patently false.

And you did not represent traditional Christians either. They believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as One God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, One God. Not at all like LDS.

The Hebrew Bible use the Hebrew word "god" to refer to angels, demons, and even Satan. The New Testament uses the Greek word "angels" to translate the Hebrew word "gods." The Bible unquestionably acknowledges the actual existence and activity of other gods.

I am sure linking is easy, I just haven't been here long enough to have done it yet.

sr

It took me a while to figure it out, too. It's not as easy as it is with other boards.

[_jordon3]

Maklelan you can't be serious with these statements.
"It's not completely false. For Latter-day Saints, no other deities matter, so they effectively believe in one God the Father, in one Son of God, and in one Holy Ghost. This is identical to Paul's statement in 1 Cor 8:4-6. "For us there is one God." If you claim you only believe in one God but still acknowledge angels, demons, and satan, than you cannot deny Latter-day Saints the same right. The instant you do, you undermine your own monotheism".

Daddy daddy daddy, these are "not" gods by "nature". AND for the love of God your say it's not completely false. haha.. do you mean it's half false , a little bit false. News flash ---- Christians believe in only ONE diety period.....all others are false gods and light years away from the "nature" and essence of the Christian God You are absolutely correct the Bible acknowledges the existence of other gods but they are not god in nature or essence by any stretch of the imagination.

[_sr1030]

[i][b]Megacles previously wrote:
We believe there is one God, one son/savior, and one holy spirit, just as traditional Christians do.

sr previously wrote:
You should not have said this. It is completely false.

It's not completely false. For Latter-day Saints, no other deities matter, so they effectively believe in one God the Father, in one Son of God, and in one Holy Ghost.

The question should be then, do any other true, real, or genuine Gods, or gods exist. It is obvious from your statement that for LDS "no other deities matter" that you do not deny you believe in the existence of other true, real or genuine Gods or gods. Christ taught that there is only one true, real or genuine God that exists in the passage I referenced for you. LDS do not follow this very clear teaching of Christ, therefore cannot logically be considered a Christian or follower of Christ.

It took me a while to figure it out, too. It's not as easy as it is with other boards.

Thanks for the tip.

sr

[_SteelHead]

Jason,
you better look at the use of the Elohim in the Old Testament from the original Hebrew. Notably Psalms 8:5.

[_jordon3]

Jason,
you better look at the use of the Elohim in the Old Testament from the original Hebrew. Notably Psalms 8:5.

Thanks Steelhead, this is a verse that requires more than just a casual examination of the Hebrew. It requires that the reader put the verse into the context of the whole Bible itself.

[_maklelan]

Daddy daddy daddy, these are "not" gods by "nature".

The author of 1 Corinthians calls them devils, which, by nature and according to the scripture, are gods. Is the author of 1 Corinthians wrong, or is the author of Galatians wrong? I know you just want to interpret the two univocally, allowing your dogmatisms to determine which texts take priority, but that's not legitimate exegesis, and you end up just waving off what one text says in favor of the other.

AND for the love of God your say it's not completely false. haha.. do you mean it's half false , a little bit false.

No, I mean your assessment is untrue.

News flash ---- Christians believe in only ONE diety period.....

Then you don't believe the Bible, because the Bible teaches about angels, demons, seraphim, cherubim, Satan, the sons of God, and other gods that, according to the authors, were very real and very effective. Assert what you wish about what you believe, but I will correct you when you misrepresent the Bible.

all others are false gods and light years away from the "nature" and essence of the Christian God You are absolutely correct the Bible acknowledges the existence of other gods but they are not god in nature or essence by any stretch of the imagination.

When you say "they are not god in nature or essence," do you mean they are not the same nature and essence of God the Father, or do you mean that they are not actually the nature and essence of the generic category of deity? If the former, that's a meaningless tautology. The title "God" in reference to YHWH is not a count noun, and so precludes the possibility of other entities being identified with it. If the latter, you are incorrect, since we must determine the generic category inductively, according to what the indigenous texts call gods. Since those entities are called gods by the indigenous texts, you have no grounds for ejecting them from the category. Unless, of course, you're begging the question, which is no doubt what you are doing.

[_jordon3]

Maklelan wrote: "The author of 1 Corinthians calls them devils, which, by nature and according to the scripture, are gods. Is the author of 1 Corinthians wrong, or is the author of Galatians wrong? I know you just want to interpret the two univocally, allowing your dogmatisms to determine which texts take priority, but that's not legitimate exegesis, and you end up just waving off what one text says in favor of the other.
Then you don't believe the Bible, because the Bible teaches about angels, demons, seraphim, cherubim, Satan, the sons of God, and other gods that, according to the authors, were very real and very effective. Assert what you wish about what you believe, but I will correct you when you misrepresent the Bible."



Jason15 wrote; The absolute attributes of God are those that have respect to His being independent of His relationship to anything else. The so called gods in your list certainly are not self existent.

The Christian God’s being is self-existent or underived. His is a self-caused existence. His existence is independent of everything else. The self-existence of God is implied in the name "Jehovah," which means "the existing one," and also in the expression "I am that I am" (Ex. 3:14), which signifies that it is God’s nature to be.
The eternity of God, which falls in the second class of attributes, also implies His self-existence. If God has existed forever, then His existence is a necessary, underived, self-caused existence. Self-existence is a mystery that is incomprehensible to man; yet a denial of it would involve us in a greater mystery. If there is not in the universe some self-existent person or thing, then the present order of things came into existence out of nothing without cause or Creator. They could not have been the product of mere energy, for energy is the property either of matter or of life. And since science has proved that matter is not eternal, we are left to assume an eternal, and therefore, a self-existent person as an explanation of the present order of things.

[_maklelan]

Jason15 wrote; The absolute attributes of God are those that have respect to His being independent of His relationship to anything else. The so called gods in your list certainly are not self existent.

The Christian God’s being is self-existent or underived. His is a self-caused existence. His existence is independent of everything else. The self-existence of God is implied in the name "Jehovah," which means "the existing one," and also in the expression "I am that I am" (Ex. 3:14), which signifies that it is God’s nature to be.
The eternity of God, which falls in the second class of attributes, also implies His self-existence. If God has existed forever, then His existence is a necessary, underived, self-caused existence. Self-existence is a mystery that is incomprehensible to man; yet a denial of it would involve us in a greater mystery. If there is not in the universe some self-existent person or thing, then the present order of things came into existence out of nothing without cause or Creator. They could not have been the product of mere energy, for energy is the property either of matter or of life. And since science has proved that matter is not eternal, we are left to assume an eternal, and therefore, a self-existent person as an explanation of the present order of things.

So you are claiming that the other gods are not identical in essence to God the Father. In other words, he's a better god than they are. This is not monotheism, this is called monarchism or henotheism, depending on whether your focus is on their sovereignty or their worship by humans. Either way, it does not deny the existence of other gods, it just insists that one is better than the others. You also have no grounds for denying the other gods their deity based simply on the fact that they are not identical to God the Father. Nothing at all in the Bible suggests that if a deity is not self-existent, it's not really a deity. That's an arbitrary feature you've decided is necessary for inclusion in the category.

So, you're now facing the fact that you acknowledge the existence of other gods, you just insist the Father is better than them. At least this is a more accurate view of the more pervasive view of the Bible. It overlooks the minority view, however, which holds that YHWH is actually neither self-existent nor the most powerful deity in the world. For instance, according to the earliest known version of Deut 32:8-9, YHWH was given stewardship over the land of Israel by Elyon, a separate deity. According to 2 Kgs 3:27, the Israelite forces, promised victory over Moab by YHWH, were run off by a "great fury" that can only have come from another deity. This was how battles were thought to be decided in the ancient Near East, and in this particular case, YHWH got beaten by the Moabite patron deity. Heck, one version of the Jacob cycle has Jacob beating God in a wrestling match. Of course, another has Jacob losing and crying about it.

[_Megacles]

Madeleine,

A few points.

- I gave scriptural reference for every doctrine of belief in the Nicene creed. Your response re: of fourth or fifth century seems to me something learned, and repeated. Not addressing the very thing you request.

You are right, you did provide scriptural reference, and I appreciate that. Mormons have scriptural references which support their positions as well. So where does that leave us? Does the Bible actually contain any of the ECF creeds?

- The response you give several times, paraphrasing, that because the Bible does not explicitly deny something, means, anything goes.....I can only wonder why you bother asking about Bible references at all? Anything goes, unless and until you are denied? The Bible is a tool to determine what you can get away with? I prefer to follow what is revealed. God has revealed Himself as ONE. God has revealed himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

It does not mean anything goes, Madeleine. It means that those who do their best to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, who believe in His divinity and His atonement, and who call themselves Christians are Christians.

- Redefining Christian terms and words, and then claiming there is the same belief, is sophistry, which doesn't fool anyone.

The Christian terms from the Nicene creed? The ones that introduced a healthy dose of Neoplatonism (like hypostasis)? Why is that the measure by which Christians shall be called Christians, and not the Bible itself?

- Baptism is a key doctrine. One Lord, one faith, one baptism.If Mormons are of the same faith as Christians, there would be no need for Mormons to "convert" Christians, or to rebaptize us, yet Mormons do both. A Mormon baptism is just that, a Mormon baptism.

I do not know about being the "same faith" as Christians. I think Mormons are not traditional (creedal) Christians, but we are most certainly Christians.