Christ visit and the Mik Maq Nephites

[_bomgeography]

New relations of Gaspesia is considered a historical document of history and the Mik Maq Indians. If you want to know about Mik Maq beliefs and culture that is one of the books you need to use

[_Maksutov]

New relations of Gaspesia is considered a historical document of history and the Mik Maq Indians. If you want to know about Mik Maq beliefs and culture that is one of the books you need to use

It's a book of stories. The Book of Mormon talks about whole cities. You're the one that has to show that the Indians are equal to the Nephites. You still have to meet all the questions that Jenkins raised that Bill Hamblin couldn't answer. And neither can you. You'd rather talk about a 17th century manuscript. Your example fails. You mention a whole book but not specific issues and accounts. There's nothing that it states that would only be explained by the Book of Mormon. Many accounts by this time were culturally contaminated and information could have been projected by the missionaries or shared by early contacts. There's no way to know.

There have been all kinds of ridiculous claims made about the Native Americans. Claims by missionaries that there were Indians that spoke Latin, or Welch, or Sanskrit. Unless they are corroborated with something more, there's no reason to treat them as serious evidence.

So that's the best you've got?

I notice that you don't address the racism charge. I guess you think preaching racist stories about other people is your "religious freedom". Yeah, you're free to be a racist. And I'm free to point it out. It's bad enough for Mormons to be associated with racists like J. Reuben Clark and Warren Jeffs, but to dig up a swastika wearing, goosestepping worshipper of Hitler for an ally really shows your judgment. Thankfully, most Mormons would find your allegiance troubling.



Yes, that's Frank Collin in the middle, the one with the Adolfish 'do. He has changed his name to Frank Joseph and is the former editor of bomgeo's favorite magazine, Ancient American. Oh, and Frank is also a convicted child molester:

"During this time, according to Jeffrey Kaplan, Covington found pictures in Frank Collin's desk that linked Collin to pedophilia.[11] In what Kaplan describes as a play for power in the organization, Covington and the other NSPA members turned the evidence on Collin over to the police.[11] After Collin was arrested, Covington took over leadership of the NSPA and moved the headquarters from Chicago to North Carolina.[2] A 1980 article in The New York Times reported that "Frank Collin was expelled from the American Nazi Party for illicit intercourse with minors and the use of Nazi headquarters in Chicago for purposes of sodomy with children. The report indicates that the Nazis "tipped" the police who arrested Collin.[12] Collin was convicted of child molestation[11][13] and sentenced in 1979 to seven years in prison at the Pontiac Correctional Center. He served three years.[11]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Collin#Downfall

Hey, at least I don't see Brant Gardner or Dan Peterson hanging out with this guy.

[_bomgeography]

Your post about frank Collins is laughable

[_Maksutov]

Your post about frank Collins is laughable

Your defense of a child molesting Nazi is not.

http://www.ldsarchaeology.com/ancient-a ... azine.html

I'm not being lurid. You're espousing a racist history, so it's hardly surprising that you would attract racists. I wonder how much documentation the Nazis employed in their fake racial science? They probably used it in the same way, against the mainstream authorities.

And I'm not even guilty of a Godwin because we're talking about actual Nazis here.

[_bomgeography]

Trying to tie the North American model to John Collins is ridiculous.

Many people have noticed the artifact evidence showing old world ties to North America. John Collins is one of them. he is a despicable human being. Trying to taint the North American model with John Collins is also despicable.

[_Maksutov]

Trying to tie the North American model to John Collins is ridiculous.

Many people have noticed the artifact evidence showing old world ties to North America. John Collins is one of them. he is a despicable human being. Trying to taint the North American model with John Collins is also despicable.

Frank Collin. Your organization attracted a major racist because it espouses a racist version of history. That is what is despicable. Your dishonesty and evasion is also despicable. You can't demonstrate a single clear Nephite connection from your best example. You can throw out a wall of text and links that you can't explain and don't care to. You've lost the war for reality. The world knows that the Book of Mormon is a fraud and a delusion and that yours is just the latest version of the scam. You insult Native Americans and you add to the racism of the priesthood ban with your racist dismissal of native civilizations.

[_Lemmie]

I think it's funny you are quoting Brant Gardner a Book of Mormon meso American apologist.

Why? I quoted a researcher giving specific academic responses to your comments; the same comments you are exactly repeating here a year later, when as far as I can tell, you never addressed his comments or supported your research. Why not?
Again:

In November, 2015, on MD&D, Brant Gardner was kind enough to make some very specific posts, responding to the information you have posted multiple times, and to which you had re-posted there again, under the name bomgeography; now you're here again, repeating your same lists of bad references and irrelevant, unsubstantiated and/or discredited quotes, with no change and without addressing any of the issues he pointed out. Why? Here are his comments:

I will be honest that I'm surprised that it's confirmed that Hopewell had metallurgy technology,

They had hammered copper. That isn't the same technology that produced the plates, which requires a much higher form of metalworking. Metallurgy is the heating of metals to change the properties of the metals. That isn't what the Hopewell did. So yes to metals, no to the type of metallurgy required in the Book of Mormon.

a matching timeline,

A similar timeline, not necessarily a matching one. As with the Maya, it depends on how you begin the count--and when. There are various disputes about the timeline, and even the separation of the Adena and the Hopewell. Because the Adena essentially became the Hopewell, one suggestion is that they are the same people at different periods. The problem isn't just the Hopewell, however, it is the relationship between the Adena and the Hopewell. The relative geographies don't fit the Book of Mormon descriptions.

Book of Mormon listed animals.

Except contemporary horses, elephants, goats, sheep --and pretty much every animal that is listed as anomalous in the Book of Mormon. The Hopewell don't solve the problem of fauna.

Early settlers found hieroglyphic tablets, ancient iron swords.

This statement requires that we accept evidence that no degreed archaeologist accepts. There are certainly some forged or otherwise questionable early writings, but nothing that hasn't had very serious criticism. I am completely unaware of contemporary iron swords attested in archaeology.

Native American have temple like ceremonies, a Hebrew calender, and Hebrew words in their vocabulary.

This evidence comes from early theorists who were untrained in the cultures they were studying, and often in the comparisons they were making (such as Elias Boudinot).

They reported connections that were not there. Just because some one claimed it, doesn't mean that it was correct. In many ways, believing everything in the early books about Native Americans is of the same quality as believing everything on the Internet. They said it, but that doesn't make it correct. It wasn't, and modern linguistics and archaeology know better.

Native Americans believed they killed off a strange race of Indians that sailed to North America from another country

Another unsubstantiated tale.

they have traditions of keeping metal tablets as records, they have beliefs of a Christ like visit, some tribes said they had white ancestors and a book of scripture,

These legends follows white preachers around. None of them can be substantiated. In the case of Central Mexico, where there is enough data to trace what happened, we can see how and why the tale developed--and that it had nothing to do with Native lore.

second highest concentration of a rare haplo group, the highest concentration of this haplo group in the world is found in Isreal,

A misreading of the DNA science, and requires complete renunciation of the associated dating that is part of the reconstruction.

Native American ties to Hebrews
https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/

I took a look at this one. There are several examples that are clearly dependent upon European styles and are not pre-contact. The Micmac examples forget that LeClerc is the one who adapted the symbols to language. All of this material is purported to be examples of Native American contacts, but none of it is accepted according to standards of modern archaeology, history, or linguistics.

So the basic answer is that you can believe the Hopewell evidence only if you define evidence as something you want to believe that is contradicted by better archaeology and linguistics. Of all of the evidence listed, nothing can survive scrutiny.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/663 ... el/?page=7

[Bolding added by me, of the parts most pertinent to your current thread title.]

So what's up? Why the spamming of every Mormon related board, every couple of months, with exactly the same material, without ever responding to anyone's comments about your sources and/or conclusions?

Is it this?

I think the Neal A Maxwell Institute should hire Book of Mormon experts who also have an expertise in Native American culture and history. Kind of like when they hire Book of Mormon experts who have expertise in mesoamerica.
I think hiring experts who understand the Book of Mormon and Native American culture and history will only help people understand the Book of Mormon.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/664 ... americans/

Are you looking for a job?

[_bomgeography]

That's like saying all Germans are Jew killers because hilter was a german

[_Maksutov]

That's like saying all Germans are Jew killers because hilter was a german

Hitler was an Austrian. And you're incoherent. Maybe I should feel pity rather than disgust for you.

[_tapirrider]

That's like saying all Germans are Jew killers because hilter was a german

No, it is not like that at all. But you seem to have no problem with the Nazi child molester who is known as Frank Collin.

Just as you have no problem with your racist claims about American Indians and your continued use of the word "Caucasian", and your claims that ancient Caucasians in America were wiped out by American Indians of a different DNA.

You have no problem putting Nephite and Lamanite labels on specific American Indian tribes with no regard to the racism that entails and you have no problem with a group of whites who pretend to be Indians.

David McKane, you know absolutely nothing about American Indians but you have no problem cherry picking white authors on Indian legend and stories and trying to twist that into your fantasy. You have no problem ignoring the scholarly challenges to your claims.

And you have no problem ignoring the counsel that used to be given by LDS apostles and prophets, to avoid getting caught up in hobby ideas on geography or Indian tribes. But that was when apostles like Mark E. Peterson and Marion G. Romney stated from the pulpit of the Salt Lake tabernacle building that all of America's indigenous peoples, from the tip of South America to Alaska were Book of Mormon people. And Spencer W. Kimball spelled it right out too. Those days are gone.

The church is dividing against itself with its own members. In one camp they are claiming that it is the indigenous ones in Mesoamerica. Another camp claims it is only certain tribes in the United States. It isn't even the same church that I belonged to.

So David, I laugh at your prediction that the Mesoamerican model will be dropped for the Heartland model. What is really happening is that the church is slowly dying. Out of 15 million members, only about 5 million are even active. And out of those, the ones promoting the heartland model and those following it are in a group that has a high percentage of nutcases.

Educated, rational and intelligent people aren't buying your product David. But not surprisingly, some white supremacists are and other extremists. So just who are you? Who do you want to be? Who do you want to be identified with? You are not the typical LDS ward member, which I have maintained are for the most part fine, decent and honest people. David, you dwell on the fringes with the nuts. And you are promoting a racism against American Indians that the LDS church is trying to tone down on.

In conclusion, I'm going to tell you again what I have been saying. Leave the American Indians alone. You don't know them, you don't understand them and you are making many racist claims against them. Just leave them alone. If you believe the Book of Mormon, fine. Stick with Moroni's promise if that is what worked to convince you it was true. But if it wasn't Moroni's promise, if you need to believe the kind of nonsense that you are trying to promote, then something is seriously wrong. If you don't have the faith to believe based on only Moroni's promise, without your fabricated evidence, then might I suggest you discard your belief in the LDS church and in the Book of Mormon and step into the real world.