Noah's Ark questions

[_EdGoble]

Mormons believe in Noah's ark. They really don't talk about it much, though, so I suspect that's because our evangelical friends have claimed the territory, along with the other creationist theories. But by quietly endorsing the Ark and the global flood (which is a doctrine, by the way), they are signing onto ark apologetics in some form.

Here is the most ambitious current presentation on the Ark. What insight can the Latter Day Saints provide on this question? Why don't they seem to care?

https://answersingenesis.org/noahs-ark/ ... n-the-ark/

And where did they keep the thousands of species of fresh water fish?

In a lot of LDS issues, the conventional traditional approach does not work, because tradition sometimes clouds things. Only reducing things down to bare bones fundamentals and then looking at how other evidences shown by science can really lead to sort of a "hybridization" approach. And by this I mean that you have to whittle down things to the most important points: (1) there was really a guy named Noah in history. (2) He had a boat with some animals on it. (3) There was a flood. (4) Noah ended up in the middle east. So long as a point of view has these four fundamentals, you can still build a case for historicity, while taking into account the other evidences.

The idea of a global flood is not a fundamental. Taking all the animals and plants in the world on the ark is not a fundamental. Landing on a high mountain is not a fundamental. I will show why:

(1) In the Book of Moses, Enoch is said to have come from a land by the sea east called Cainan, where his family is from. This is one of the few scriptures that gives any clue about pre-Flood geography.
(2) LDS tradition has Noah launching the ark from South Carolina, a nice candidate for Cainan.
(3) South Carolina is on the coast.
(4) The book of Ether says that "after the waters receded off the face of THIS LAND, it became a choice land blah blah..."
(5) This geographic key also coincides with the South Carolina tradition, as well as the Book of Moses statements.
(6) Therefore, Noah launched the ark in South Carolina. And if the flood was not global, therefore the flood took place in America.
(7) Since it happened on the coast, it took Noah out to sea.
(8) Scripture and Mesopotamian traditions show that Noah landed in the Middle East, Sumer to be exact.
(9) Ignoring traditions about Ararat in Turkey, Mesopotamian flood traditions say that Noah landed on the coast of Iraq by the mouth of the two rivers of Mesopotamia, near the ancient coastal city of Eridu.
(10) Mesopotamian traditions place Noah at Eridu after the flood.
(11) The Hebrew word for mountain ("har"), back-translated into Sumerian is kar. However, in Sumerian, kar means not just mountain, but land.
(12) Since Bible scholars believe that the Genesis accounts are reliant on Mespotamian traditions, it is not a bad plan to theorize that the original accounts that it is dependent upon may have been written in Mesopotamian languages, and so, perhaps the meaning of the word "kar" in Sumerian is a key here. So, instead of mountains of Ararat, perhaps we should be translating this phrase as "land of Ararat."
(13) Some scholars feel that the word Eridu/Iritu is a form of the name Ararat, and they do in fact share the same consonants in the words.

Therefore, basic LDS tradition coupled with good information yields the view that the flood was local, but that the sea voyage was global, and Noah ended up on the coast of Iraq rather than on a mountain. Therefore, there is indeed a good case for historicity. However, this cannot be shown to be the case without whittling down things to bare bones and starting over from scratch, getting rid of implausible notions such as a global flood or landing on a very high mountain.

[_Maksutov]

Thank you for your thoughtful post, Ed. I would like to post something from the LDS leader with the most to say on the accounts of the creation and its aftermath, which I include the Flood story with, for obvious reasons. From Joseph Fielding Smith:

http://www.sainesburyproject.com/Mormon ... estiny.pdf
.................

After presenting all of this by way of argument, the thought is still impressed on my mind,
why should time be spent in argument to prove true what the Lord has so definitely declared
by the words of his own mouth? There are, however, so many possessed with skeptical minds
that it seems that more than the direct word from the Lord is required to convince them. The
real reason for the covering of the earth by a flood thus far has not been mentioned. All the
Lord had to say to Noah about the corruption of all things on the face of the earth is true, but
there was another reason for such a flood. We have called attention to the fact that the earth
itself had become corrupt: "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for
all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth." 21 We learn from the revelations given to the
Prophet Joseph Smith, that the earth is a living being. It is obedient to every command,
therefore it is entitled to be sanctified, just as human beings who keep the commandments of
the Lord are to be sanctified. "And again," said the Lord, "the earth abideth the law of a
celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—
Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again,
and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it." 22
Therefore, in order to sanctify the earth and cleanse it, it had to pass through the water of
baptism, and by water be cleansed. Then, at a later day, it will be baptized with the fire and
the Holy Ghost, just the same for the earth as for humanity who will possess it forever. Now
we begin to see why there had to be a flood. It had to be a complete immersion, just the same
as any other baptism, so the Lord did two things, first, he cleansed the earth of all of its
corruption brought upon it by the wickedness of "all flesh," and second, the earth having
reached the age for such an ordinance, was cleansed from all the sin upon its face.
Moreover, we, the members of the Church, do not have to rely on the record in the Bible
alone. We have also the word of the Lord and his servants in the Book of Mormon and the
Pearl of Great Price, and in these records we find the confirmation of the story of the flood as
recorded by Moses, and also by the antediluvians in the record which was handed down to
Abraham. We will conclude our evidence by quoting the words of our brethren in relation to
the baptism of the earth.
TESTIMONY OF PRESIDENT BRIGHAM YOUNG
Here are the earth and the inhabitants upon its face, organized for the express purpose of a
glorious resurrection. The terra firma on which we walk, is looking forth for the morning of
the resurrection, and will get a resurrection, and be cleansed from the filthiness that has gone
forth out of her. This is Bible doctrine. What filthiness has gone forth out of her? You and I,
and all the inhabitants of the earth; the human body, and all earthly bodies, both animal and
vegetable; are composed of the native element that we breathe, that we drink, and that we
walk upon, we till the earth for our bread, which is one of the materials of which your body is
composed, it comes forth from the native elements into an organized state; what for? To be
exalted, to get a glorious resurrection. We are of the earth, earthy, and not only will the
portion of mother earth which composes these bodies get a resurrection but the earth itself. It
has already been baptized. [My italics.] You who have read the Bible must know that that is
Bible doctrine. What does it matter if it is not stated in the same words that I use, it is none
the less true that it was baptized for the remission of sins. The Lord said, "I will deluge (or
immerse) the earth in water for the remission of the sins of the people"; or if you will allow
me to express myself in a familiar style, to kill the vermin that were nitting, and breeding,
and polluting its body; it was cleansed of its filthiness; and soaked in the water, as long as
some of our people ought to soak. The Lord baptized the earth for the remission of sins, and
it has been once cleansed from the filthiness that has gone out of it, which was in the
inhabitants who dwelt upon its face. 23
The following is from a sermon by President Brigham Young spoken in Ogden, June 12,
1860:
Brethren and sisters, I wish you to continue in your ways of well doing; I desire that your
minds may be opened more and more to see and understand things as they are. This earth, in
its present condition and situation, is not a fit habitation for the sanctified; but it abides the
law of its creation, has been baptized with water, will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost,
and by-and-by will be prepared for the faithful to dwell upon. 24
This is from a discourse by Elder Orson Pratt:
The first ordinance instituted for the cleansing of the earth, was that of immersion in water; it
was buried in the liquid element, and all things sinful upon the face of it were washed away.
As it came forth from the ocean flood, like the new-born child, it was innocent, it arose to
newness of life; it was its second birth from the womb of mighty waters—a new world
issuing from the ruins of the old, clothed with all the innocency of this first creation. As men
cannot be born again of water, without an administrator, so the earth required an agency
independent of itself, to administer this grand cleansing ordinance, and restore it to its infant
purity. That administrator was the Redeemer himself. 25
Following is an excerpt from an article entitled, "Leaves From the Tree of Life," by President
Charles W. Penrose:
Thus the inhabitants of earth with the few exceptions that are beyond the power of
redemption will eventually be saved. And the globe on which they passed their probation,
having kept the law of its being, will come into remembrance before its Maker. It will die
like its products. But it will be quickened again and resurrected in the celestial glory. It has
been born of the water, it will also be born of the Spirit, purified by fire from the corruption
that once defiled it, developed into its perfections as one of the family of worlds fitted for the
Creator's presence, all its latent light awakened into scintillating action, it will move up into
its place among the orbs governed by celestial time, and shining, "like a sea of glass mingled
with fire," every tint and color of the heavenly bow radiating from its surface, the ransomed
of the Lord will dwell upon it; the highest beings of the ancient orbs will visit it; the garden
of God will again adorn it; the heavenly government will prevail in every part; Jesus will
reign as its King; the river of life will flow out from the regal throne; the tree of life, whose
leaves were for the healing of the nations, will flourish upon the banks of the heavenly
stream, and its golden fruit will be free for the white-robed throng, that they may eat and live
forever. This perfected Earth and its saved inhabitants will then be presented to the Eternal
Father as the finished work of Christ, and all things will be subject unto the Great Patriarch,
Architect, Creator, Ruler, the Almighty, to whom be obedience and reverence and praise in
all the countless worlds that shine as jewels in His universal Crown. 26
This is the testimony of President John Taylor:
The earth, as part of the creation of God, has fulfilled and will fulfil the measure of its
creation. It has been baptized by water, it will be baptized by fire; it will be purified and
become celestial, and be a fit place for celestial bodies to inhabit. It will become the
residence of those who have abode a celestial law, and of none other, after it has become
purified, and made celestial. 27
Testimony of Elder Orson F. Whitney:
Of Noah's day, it is written: "As the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of
Man be." And it was the Son of Man—though I prefer to call him the Son of God—who said
it. Baptized with water in the days of Noah, the earth will yet be baptized with fire and with
the Holy Ghost. 28

............

Please refute the teachings of this deceased prophet.

[_Themis]

In a lot of LDS issues, the conventional traditional approach does not work, because tradition sometimes clouds things. Only reducing things down to bare bones fundamentals and then looking at how other evidences shown by science can really lead to sort of a "hybridization" approach. And by this I mean that you have to whittle down things to the most important points: (1) there was really a guy named Noah in history. (2) He had a boat with some animals on it. (3) There was a flood. (4) Noah ended up in the middle east. So long as a point of view has these four fundamentals, you can still build a case for historicity, while taking into account the other evidences.

It's more then that. I suggest reading the account again. God was planning to destroy man who he had created. Only Noah and his family were to be saved. The story says all animals of the earth or land. The whole point of the animals was to save the animals of creation from the flood. Plants are not mentioned, but I suspect the authors of the myth thought they would just grow back. LDS due to Joseph's claimed revelations put Noah in the Americas but with a global flood he can end up on a mountain in the middle east as the waters recede. A local flood makes it implausible to land in the middle east. Damn we missed all the land in our way. Most Christians view Noah as a fictional/mythical figure much the same as Adam. LDS have it much worse because of Joseph's claimed revelations.

[_EdGoble]

"If we are to progress in this task, we must chop away and burn the conceptual underbrush that has afflicted the effort in the past. We must stop asking, as so many do, what have the Brethren said about this in the past?" (John Sorenson, The Geography of Book of Mormon Events: A Source Book, p. 210)

"On the subject of organic evolution the Church has officially taken no position. The book 'Man, His Origin and Destiny' was not published by the Church, and is not approved by the Church. The book contains expressions of the author's views for which he alone is responsible" (David O. McKay http://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/LDS/lds-articles/mckay-evolution.pdf)

“Since the Gospel is only that which is true, this book cannot be regarded as more than the private opinion of one of our great men to be admired for the fine things in it." (Henry Eyring
http://trevorprice.net/2011/08/03/a-delicate-dialogue-henry-eyring-and-joseph-fielding-smith/, http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_sources/Evolution/Eyring_Bennion_Letter)

Thank you for your thoughtful post, Ed. I would like to post something from the LDS leader with the most to say on the accounts of the creation and its aftermath, which I include the Flood story with, for obvious reasons. From Joseph Fielding Smith:

http://www.sainesburyproject.com/Mormon ... estiny.pdf
.................

After presenting all of this by way of argument, the thought is still impressed on my mind,
why should time be spent in argument to prove true what the Lord has so definitely declared
by the words of his own mouth? There are, however, so many possessed with skeptical minds
that it seems that more than the direct word from the Lord is required to convince them. The
real reason for the covering of the earth by a flood thus far has not been mentioned. All the
Lord had to say to Noah about the corruption of all things on the face of the earth is true, but
there was another reason for such a flood. We have called attention to the fact that the earth
itself had become corrupt: "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for
all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth." 21 We learn from the revelations given to the
Prophet Joseph Smith, that the earth is a living being. It is obedient to every command,
therefore it is entitled to be sanctified, just as human beings who keep the commandments of
the Lord are to be sanctified. "And again," said the Lord, "the earth abideth the law of a
celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—
Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again,
and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it." 22
Therefore, in order to sanctify the earth and cleanse it, it had to pass through the water of
baptism, and by water be cleansed. Then, at a later day, it will be baptized with the fire and
the Holy Ghost, just the same for the earth as for humanity who will possess it forever. Now
we begin to see why there had to be a flood. It had to be a complete immersion, just the same
as any other baptism, so the Lord did two things, first, he cleansed the earth of all of its
corruption brought upon it by the wickedness of "all flesh," and second, the earth having
reached the age for such an ordinance, was cleansed from all the sin upon its face.
Moreover, we, the members of the Church, do not have to rely on the record in the Bible
alone. We have also the word of the Lord and his servants in the Book of Mormon and the
Pearl of Great Price, and in these records we find the confirmation of the story of the flood as
recorded by Moses, and also by the antediluvians in the record which was handed down to
Abraham. We will conclude our evidence by quoting the words of our brethren in relation to
the baptism of the earth.
TESTIMONY OF PRESIDENT BRIGHAM YOUNG
Here are the earth and the inhabitants upon its face, organized for the express purpose of a
glorious resurrection. The terra firma on which we walk, is looking forth for the morning of
the resurrection, and will get a resurrection, and be cleansed from the filthiness that has gone
forth out of her. This is Bible doctrine. What filthiness has gone forth out of her? You and I,
and all the inhabitants of the earth; the human body, and all earthly bodies, both animal and
vegetable; are composed of the native element that we breathe, that we drink, and that we
walk upon, we till the earth for our bread, which is one of the materials of which your body is
composed, it comes forth from the native elements into an organized state; what for? To be
exalted, to get a glorious resurrection. We are of the earth, earthy, and not only will the
portion of mother earth which composes these bodies get a resurrection but the earth itself. It
has already been baptized. [My italics.] You who have read the Bible must know that that is
Bible doctrine. What does it matter if it is not stated in the same words that I use, it is none
the less true that it was baptized for the remission of sins. The Lord said, "I will deluge (or
immerse) the earth in water for the remission of the sins of the people"; or if you will allow
me to express myself in a familiar style, to kill the vermin that were nitting, and breeding,
and polluting its body; it was cleansed of its filthiness; and soaked in the water, as long as
some of our people ought to soak. The Lord baptized the earth for the remission of sins, and
it has been once cleansed from the filthiness that has gone out of it, which was in the
inhabitants who dwelt upon its face. 23
The following is from a sermon by President Brigham Young spoken in Ogden, June 12,
1860:
Brethren and sisters, I wish you to continue in your ways of well doing; I desire that your
minds may be opened more and more to see and understand things as they are. This earth, in
its present condition and situation, is not a fit habitation for the sanctified; but it abides the
law of its creation, has been baptized with water, will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost,
and by-and-by will be prepared for the faithful to dwell upon. 24
This is from a discourse by Elder Orson Pratt:
The first ordinance instituted for the cleansing of the earth, was that of immersion in water; it
was buried in the liquid element, and all things sinful upon the face of it were washed away.
As it came forth from the ocean flood, like the new-born child, it was innocent, it arose to
newness of life; it was its second birth from the womb of mighty waters—a new world
issuing from the ruins of the old, clothed with all the innocency of this first creation. As men
cannot be born again of water, without an administrator, so the earth required an agency
independent of itself, to administer this grand cleansing ordinance, and restore it to its infant
purity. That administrator was the Redeemer himself. 25
Following is an excerpt from an article entitled, "Leaves From the Tree of Life," by President
Charles W. Penrose:
Thus the inhabitants of earth with the few exceptions that are beyond the power of
redemption will eventually be saved. And the globe on which they passed their probation,
having kept the law of its being, will come into remembrance before its Maker. It will die
like its products. But it will be quickened again and resurrected in the celestial glory. It has
been born of the water, it will also be born of the Spirit, purified by fire from the corruption
that once defiled it, developed into its perfections as one of the family of worlds fitted for the
Creator's presence, all its latent light awakened into scintillating action, it will move up into
its place among the orbs governed by celestial time, and shining, "like a sea of glass mingled
with fire," every tint and color of the heavenly bow radiating from its surface, the ransomed
of the Lord will dwell upon it; the highest beings of the ancient orbs will visit it; the garden
of God will again adorn it; the heavenly government will prevail in every part; Jesus will
reign as its King; the river of life will flow out from the regal throne; the tree of life, whose
leaves were for the healing of the nations, will flourish upon the banks of the heavenly
stream, and its golden fruit will be free for the white-robed throng, that they may eat and live
forever. This perfected Earth and its saved inhabitants will then be presented to the Eternal
Father as the finished work of Christ, and all things will be subject unto the Great Patriarch,
Architect, Creator, Ruler, the Almighty, to whom be obedience and reverence and praise in
all the countless worlds that shine as jewels in His universal Crown. 26
This is the testimony of President John Taylor:
The earth, as part of the creation of God, has fulfilled and will fulfil the measure of its
creation. It has been baptized by water, it will be baptized by fire; it will be purified and
become celestial, and be a fit place for celestial bodies to inhabit. It will become the
residence of those who have abode a celestial law, and of none other, after it has become
purified, and made celestial. 27
Testimony of Elder Orson F. Whitney:
Of Noah's day, it is written: "As the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of
Man be." And it was the Son of Man—though I prefer to call him the Son of God—who said
it. Baptized with water in the days of Noah, the earth will yet be baptized with fire and with
the Holy Ghost. 28

............

Please refute the teachings of this deceased prophet.

[_Maksutov]

"If we are to progress in this task, we must chop away and burn the conceptual underbrush that has afflicted the effort in the past. We must stop asking, as so many do, what have the Brethren said about this in the past?" (John Sorenson, The Geography of Book of Mormon Events: A Source Book, p. 210)

"On the subject of organic evolution the Church has officially taken no position. The book 'Man, His Origin and Destiny' was not published by the Church, and is not approved by the Church. The book contains expressions of the author's views for which he alone is responsible" (David O. McKay http://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/LDS ... lution.pdf)

“Since the Gospel is only that which is true, this book cannot be regarded as more than the private opinion of one of our great men to be admired for the fine things in it." (Henry Eyring
http://trevorprice.net/2011/08/03/a-del ... ing-smith/, http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_source ... ion_Letter)

Thank you for your thoughtful post, Ed. I would like to post something from the LDS leader with the most to say on the accounts of the creation and its aftermath, which I include the Flood story with, for obvious reasons. From Joseph Fielding Smith:

http://www.sainesburyproject.com/Mormon ... estiny.pdf
.................

After presenting all of this by way of argument, the thought is still impressed on my mind,
why should time be spent in argument to prove true what the Lord has so definitely declared
by the words of his own mouth? There are, however, so many possessed with skeptical minds
that it seems that more than the direct word from the Lord is required to convince them. The
real reason for the covering of the earth by a flood thus far has not been mentioned. All the
Lord had to say to Noah about the corruption of all things on the face of the earth is true, but
there was another reason for such a flood. We have called attention to the fact that the earth
itself had become corrupt: "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for
all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth." 21 We learn from the revelations given to the
Prophet Joseph Smith, that the earth is a living being. It is obedient to every command,
therefore it is entitled to be sanctified, just as human beings who keep the commandments of
the Lord are to be sanctified. "And again," said the Lord, "the earth abideth the law of a
celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—
Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again,
and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it." 22
Therefore, in order to sanctify the earth and cleanse it, it had to pass through the water of
baptism, and by water be cleansed. Then, at a later day, it will be baptized with the fire and
the Holy Ghost, just the same for the earth as for humanity who will possess it forever. Now
we begin to see why there had to be a flood. It had to be a complete immersion, just the same
as any other baptism, so the Lord did two things, first, he cleansed the earth of all of its
corruption brought upon it by the wickedness of "all flesh," and second, the earth having
reached the age for such an ordinance, was cleansed from all the sin upon its face.
Moreover, we, the members of the Church, do not have to rely on the record in the Bible
alone. We have also the word of the Lord and his servants in the Book of Mormon and the
Pearl of Great Price, and in these records we find the confirmation of the story of the flood as
recorded by Moses, and also by the antediluvians in the record which was handed down to
Abraham. We will conclude our evidence by quoting the words of our brethren in relation to
the baptism of the earth.
TESTIMONY OF PRESIDENT BRIGHAM YOUNG
Here are the earth and the inhabitants upon its face, organized for the express purpose of a
glorious resurrection. The terra firma on which we walk, is looking forth for the morning of
the resurrection, and will get a resurrection, and be cleansed from the filthiness that has gone
forth out of her. This is Bible doctrine. What filthiness has gone forth out of her? You and I,
and all the inhabitants of the earth; the human body, and all earthly bodies, both animal and
vegetable; are composed of the native element that we breathe, that we drink, and that we
walk upon, we till the earth for our bread, which is one of the materials of which your body is
composed, it comes forth from the native elements into an organized state; what for? To be
exalted, to get a glorious resurrection. We are of the earth, earthy, and not only will the
portion of mother earth which composes these bodies get a resurrection but the earth itself. It
has already been baptized. [My italics.] You who have read the Bible must know that that is
Bible doctrine. What does it matter if it is not stated in the same words that I use, it is none
the less true that it was baptized for the remission of sins. The Lord said, "I will deluge (or
immerse) the earth in water for the remission of the sins of the people"; or if you will allow
me to express myself in a familiar style, to kill the vermin that were nitting, and breeding,
and polluting its body; it was cleansed of its filthiness; and soaked in the water, as long as
some of our people ought to soak. The Lord baptized the earth for the remission of sins, and
it has been once cleansed from the filthiness that has gone out of it, which was in the
inhabitants who dwelt upon its face. 23
The following is from a sermon by President Brigham Young spoken in Ogden, June 12,
1860:
Brethren and sisters, I wish you to continue in your ways of well doing; I desire that your
minds may be opened more and more to see and understand things as they are. This earth, in
its present condition and situation, is not a fit habitation for the sanctified; but it abides the
law of its creation, has been baptized with water, will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost,
and by-and-by will be prepared for the faithful to dwell upon. 24
This is from a discourse by Elder Orson Pratt:
The first ordinance instituted for the cleansing of the earth, was that of immersion in water; it
was buried in the liquid element, and all things sinful upon the face of it were washed away.
As it came forth from the ocean flood, like the new-born child, it was innocent, it arose to
newness of life; it was its second birth from the womb of mighty waters—a new world
issuing from the ruins of the old, clothed with all the innocency of this first creation. As men
cannot be born again of water, without an administrator, so the earth required an agency
independent of itself, to administer this grand cleansing ordinance, and restore it to its infant
purity. That administrator was the Redeemer himself. 25
Following is an excerpt from an article entitled, "Leaves From the Tree of Life," by President
Charles W. Penrose:
Thus the inhabitants of earth with the few exceptions that are beyond the power of
redemption will eventually be saved. And the globe on which they passed their probation,
having kept the law of its being, will come into remembrance before its Maker. It will die
like its products. But it will be quickened again and resurrected in the celestial glory. It has
been born of the water, it will also be born of the Spirit, purified by fire from the corruption
that once defiled it, developed into its perfections as one of the family of worlds fitted for the
Creator's presence, all its latent light awakened into scintillating action, it will move up into
its place among the orbs governed by celestial time, and shining, "like a sea of glass mingled
with fire," every tint and color of the heavenly bow radiating from its surface, the ransomed
of the Lord will dwell upon it; the highest beings of the ancient orbs will visit it; the garden
of God will again adorn it; the heavenly government will prevail in every part; Jesus will
reign as its King; the river of life will flow out from the regal throne; the tree of life, whose
leaves were for the healing of the nations, will flourish upon the banks of the heavenly
stream, and its golden fruit will be free for the white-robed throng, that they may eat and live
forever. This perfected Earth and its saved inhabitants will then be presented to the Eternal
Father as the finished work of Christ, and all things will be subject unto the Great Patriarch,
Architect, Creator, Ruler, the Almighty, to whom be obedience and reverence and praise in
all the countless worlds that shine as jewels in His universal Crown. 26
This is the testimony of President John Taylor:
The earth, as part of the creation of God, has fulfilled and will fulfil the measure of its
creation. It has been baptized by water, it will be baptized by fire; it will be purified and
become celestial, and be a fit place for celestial bodies to inhabit. It will become the
residence of those who have abode a celestial law, and of none other, after it has become
purified, and made celestial. 27
Testimony of Elder Orson F. Whitney:
Of Noah's day, it is written: "As the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of
Man be." And it was the Son of Man—though I prefer to call him the Son of God—who said
it. Baptized with water in the days of Noah, the earth will yet be baptized with fire and with
the Holy Ghost. 28

............

Please refute the teachings of this deceased prophet.

We aren't talking about evolution, Ed; we're talking about the Flood. You haven't refuted JFS. While the church did not endorse his book, we have had recent GAs condemning evolution, so let's not pretend that evolution is accepted by the church. It isn't. Silence on the subject isn't wisdom, it's cowardice on the part of the institution.

Mormons have to accept Noah's ark literally. I didn't make it up, it's there, along with Adam and Eve and the Tower of Babel. Just try to get someone in GC to claim that the global flood didn't happen. You're coming up with your own private Mormonism, just like you have your own Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham. It might be what you need to stay aboard a la Tom Ferguson, but it's out there for everyone to see.

[_EdGoble]

In a lot of LDS issues, the conventional traditional approach does not work, because tradition sometimes clouds things. Only reducing things down to bare bones fundamentals and then looking at how other evidences shown by science can really lead to sort of a "hybridization" approach. And by this I mean that you have to whittle down things to the most important points: (1) there was really a guy named Noah in history. (2) He had a boat with some animals on it. (3) There was a flood. (4) Noah ended up in the middle east. So long as a point of view has these four fundamentals, you can still build a case for historicity, while taking into account the other evidences.

It's more then that. I suggest reading the account again. God was planning to destroy man who he had created. Only Noah and his family were to be saved. The story says all animals of the earth or land. The whole point of the animals was to save the animals of creation from the flood. Plants are not mentioned, but I suspect the authors of the myth thought they would just grow back. LDS due to Joseph's claimed revelations put Noah in the Americas but with a global flood he can end up on a mountain in the middle east as the waters recede. A local flood makes it implausible to land in the middle east. Damn we missed all the land in our way. Most Christians view Noah as a fictional/mythical figure much the same as Adam. LDS have it much worse because of Joseph's claimed revelations.

Sorry. No. I don't need to read that again. I've read it very in-depth. You are being to textual-literalist, and holding that against someone (me) that is not a textual literalist. Once you are out at sea, you can get anywhere the winds take you and if a God is driving those winds, then well...... Yeah, I get it that some of you don't believe in the Mormon God, but we are actually talking about how the Mormon God got them there. So in those terms, I am, speaking. You can dismiss the whole notion of it's historicity if you want, and dismiss the Mormon god, but there is nothing implausible whatsoever about what I have suggested, with the assumption that the Mormon God is God, and has the power that he is claimed to have, notwithstanding you don't want to accept it.

For behold, ye shall be as a whale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the winds have gone forth out of my mouth, and also the rains and the floods have I sent forth. (Ether 2:24)

And it came to pass that the Lord God caused that there should be a furious wind blow upon the face of the waters, towards the promised land; and thus they were tossed upon the waves of the sea before the wind. (Ether 6:5)

[_EdGoble]

You quoted Man His Origin and Destiny, and I provided a prophetic disclaimer of the whole book. Sorry. I am not defined or limited by the words of past prophets or the actions or positions of an Institution. You asked how an LDS person would deal with this. I gave this to you. I don't give a rats if this is my own private Mormonism. I am not limited by classic Mormonism. The only thing that matters for my temple recommend is Loyalty to the Brethren, not loyalty to positions in Man His Origin and Destiny.

We aren't talking about evolution, Ed; we're talking about the Flood. You haven't refuted JFS. While the church did not endorse his book, we have had recent GAs condemning evolution, so let's not pretend that evolution is accepted by the church. It isn't. Silence on the subject isn't wisdom, it's cowardice on the part of the institution.

Mormons have to accept Noah's ark literally. I didn't make it up, it's there, along with Adam and Eve and the Tower of Babel. Just try to get someone in General Conference to claim that the global flood didn't happen. You're coming up with your own private Mormonism, just like you have your own Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham. It might be what you need to stay aboard a la Tom Ferguson, but it's out there for everyone to see.

[_Maksutov]

I don't give a rats if this is my own private Mormonism. I am not limited by classic Mormonism. The only thing that matters for my temple recommend is Loyalty to the Brethren, not loyalty to positions in Man His Origin and Destiny.

And your tithing payments, of course.

[_EdGoble]

We aren't talking about evolution, Ed; we're talking about the Flood. You haven't refuted JFS. While the church did not endorse his book, we have had recent GAs condemning evolution, so let's not pretend that evolution is accepted by the church. It isn't. Silence on the subject isn't wisdom, it's cowardice on the part of the institution.

Mormons have to accept Noah's ark literally. I didn't make it up, it's there, along with Adam and Eve and the Tower of Babel. Just try to get someone in General Conference to claim that the global flood didn't happen. You're coming up with your own private Mormonism, just like you have your own Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham. It might be what you need to stay aboard a la Tom Ferguson, but it's out there for everyone to see.

Nobody has to accept anything literally that doesn't have an effect on their temple recommend. Sorry. Yes, I know that that disarms some of your ammunition against Mormons in general, but not all Mormons are Chapel Mormons. Many like me are Internet-age Mormons that are actually thoughtful. We are more sophisticated than that. You aren't dealing with just naïve Chapel Mormons. Actually no, I don't need to be faithless like Furguson, but yes, I do need a Modified Mormonism, that much is true.

"The Church has no official position on the theory of evolution. Organic evolution, or changes to species’ inherited traits over time, is a matter for scientific study. Nothing has been revealed concerning evolution. Though the details of what happened on earth before Adam and Eve, including how their bodies were created, have not been revealed, our teachings regarding man’s origin are clear and come from revelation." (October 2016 New Era, https://www.LDS.org/new-era/2016/10/to- ... t?lang=eng)

[_EdGoble]

I don't give a rats if this is my own private Mormonism. I am not limited by classic Mormonism. The only thing that matters for my temple recommend is Loyalty to the Brethren, not loyalty to positions in Man His Origin and Destiny.

And your tithing payments, of course.

Of course. I love paying tithing. It feels good to keep commandments.