Native American and Children of Israel Fiery Flying Serpents

[_huckelberry]

from Merriam Webster,

Definition of counter
counteredcountering play \ˈkau̇n-t(ə-)riŋ\

transitive verb

1
a : to act in opposition to : oppose b : offset, nullify <tried to counter the trend toward depersonalization>

2
: to assert in answer <we countered that our warnings had been ignored>
intransitive verb

: to meet attacks or arguments with defensive or retaliatory steps

[_bomgeography]

since no one can counter this comparison between Native American fiery flying serpents and the Old Testament fiery flying serpents. People have to focus on other things that irrelevant to the topic at hand. On this blog it's a common practice.

[_Choyo Chagas]

from Merriam Webster,

Definition of counter

ok thank you

[_Lemmie]

since no one can counter this comparison between Native American fiery flying serpents and the Old Testament fiery flying serpents. People have to focus on other things that irrelevant to the topic at hand. On this blog it's a common practice.

countered, disproved, discredited, over and over and over.
You never responded to this:

there is a long and unsavory tradition in the United States–going back to the very earliest days of European colonization–of attempts to insert Europeans into Native American history. These attempts have taken many forms....Roman Jews in Arizona (the Tucson Artifacts) (Burgess 2009); the Lost Tribes of Israel in Ohio (the Newark Holy Stones) (Lepper and Gill 2000); and strange mixtures of various ancient Old World peoples...

[This] attention is merely the latest iteration of a long tradition of emphasizing completely unsubstantiated hypotheses of European contributions to Native American prehistory. The fact is that they run counter to the consensus of over a century of research by hundreds of scholars in multiple disciplines.... [and] they are doing so with complete unawareness—or worse, disregard—for the ways in which this narrative has been used over the past several centuries as a tool to de-legitimize Native Americans’ connections to their own history.
https://violentmetaphors.com/2014/03/10/problematic-science-journalism-native-american-ancestry-and-the-solutrean-hypothesis/

You accused tapirrider of being disrespectful, what about your disrespect? In this topic, and in all of your topics?

McKane, can you address your disrespect to Native American History with your discredited parallels and pseudo-science?

[_tapirrider]

Sorry tapir but you are looking in meso America not North America. These depictions of flying serpents are from the Mississippian culture. Not from Olmec culture.
The Mississippian culture dates after the Book of Mormon

David McKane, I am pointing out something quite obvious. The flying serpent was in the Americas before Lehi. Common sense leads one to consider the influence from Mesoamerica into regions of the United States as being far more likely than your claim that because the artifacts show up in the United States after the Book of Mormon stories supposedly ended, they must be proof that the Book of Mormon is real.

since no one can counter this comparison between Native American fiery flying serpents and the Old Testament fiery flying serpents. People have to focus on other things that irrelevant to the topic at hand. On this blog it's a common practice.

The fact is that the flying serpent is found in the Americas dating before Lehi. That is a very significant matter, certainly not "irrelevant".

[_tapirrider]

You do the same

Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(“Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... -american- people-migration-siberia-genetics/)

In that case, as it has been proposed, haplogroup X was brought to America by the eastward migration of an ancestral white population, of which no trace has so far been found in the mtDNA gene pool of modern Siberian/eastern Asian population”
(The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001)
“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.”
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9707616292
“Overall, the sequence data and phylogenetic analysis suggest that the Native American and the European haplogroup X mtDNAs share a common maternal ancestor”
“The 14 Caucasian-European haplogroup X samples (designated “CE1”–“CE14”) included 2 Caucasians of European ancestry”
(MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America Michael D. Brown,1 Seyed H. Hosseini,1 Antonio Torroni,2 Hans-Ju ̈rgenBandelt,3 Jon C. Allen,1 Theodore G. Schurr,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Fulvio Cruciani,2 and Douglas C. Wallace1)
“Phylogenetic analysis and coalescence estimates for American Indian and European haplogroup X mtDNAs exclude the possibility that the occurrence of haplogroup X in American Indians is due to recent European admixture.”
(The Presence of Mitochondrial haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001)

Another problem with the Bering Ice bridge theory is that Polynesian DNA is found in South America. The idea that Polynesians migrated across the Bering Ice Bridge is ridiculous.

“The prevailing theory is that the first Americans arrived in a single wave, and all Native American populations today descend from this one group of adventurous founders. But now there’s a kink in that theory. “
“If Aleutian Islanders or their ancestors had somehow mixed with an Australasian group up north or made their way south to the Amazon, they’d leave genetic clues along the way. “It’s not a clear alternative,” argues Reich. “
“Three Amazonian groups—Suruí, Karitiana and Xavante—all had more in common with Australasians than any group in Siberia. “
“Both studies therefore suggest that the ancestry of the first Americans is a lot more complicated than scientists had envisioned.”
“There is a greater diversity of Native American founding populations than previously thought,” says Skoglund. “And these founding populations connect indigenous groups in far apart places of the world.”
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-n ... ans-links- amazon-indigenous-australians-180955976/?no-ist

David McKane, I have previously addressed to you the problem of your use of Caucasian claims. No scientist uses it today the way you do. I have addressed the older dates of the publications you reference and in past correspondence have provided you sources for why using it this way is wrong. But here you do it again, "haplogroup X was brought to America by the eastward migration of an ancestral white population".

And you had the nerve to get upset at me over a light-hearted comment about having a cup of coffee in the brutal North Dakota winter, a state where actual American Indians who carry haplogroup x live. Unbelievable. I hope that as you grow older you will realize how wrong you are. Maybe in years to come. In the meantime, just leave American Indians alone. You don't know them, you don't understand them and you are promoting racism. Just stop. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is trying to distance itself from such racism. Your writings are much more in line with Kyle Bristow's racist novel "White Apocalypse" than they are with the position of your church. Why do you do this David?

[_bomgeography]

Let's see what Native American tradition says concerning the topic

Concerning Hattera Indians of North Carolina:
“These Hattera tell us, that several of their Ancestors were white People, and could talk in a Book, as we do; the Truth of which is confirmed by gray eyes being found frequently amongst these Indians, and no others.”
(John Lawson 1709 pg. 62)

Captain Brant Thayendanegea was a well-known Iroquois and Mohawk leader and Chief who sided with the British during the Revolutionary war. He was born of Iroquois parents who converted to Christianity. They gave him a Christian name Joseph Brant. The quote is from his biography:
“I was curious to learn in the course of my conversations with Captain Brant (Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief), what information he could give me respecting the tumuli (mounds) which are found on and near the margin of the rivers and lakes, from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi. He stated, in reply, that the subject had long been agitated, but yet remained in some obscurity. A tradition, he said, prevailed among the different nations of Indians through-out that whole extensive range of country, and had been handed down time immemorial, that in an age long gone by, there came white men from a foreign country, and by consent of the Indians established trading-houses and settlements where these tumuli (mounds) are found. A friendly intercourse was continued for several years; many of the white men brought their wives, and had children born to them; and additions to their numbers were made yearly from their own country. These circumstances at length gave rise to jealousies among the Indians, and fears began to be entertained in regard to the increasing numbers, wealth, and ulterior views of the new comers; apprehending that becoming strong, they might one day seize upon the country as their own. A secret council, composed of the chiefs of all the different nations from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi, was therefore convoked; the result of which, after long deliberation, was a resolution that on a certain night designated for that purpose, all their white neighbors, men, women and children, should be exterminated.“
(Stone 1838 pg. 484)
“Here the Indians tell us there was a war in early times, against an Indian town, traces of which are yet visible, corn pits, etc. This was inhabited by a distinct nation, neither Iroquois nor Delawares, who spoke a peculiar language, and were called Tehotitachse, against them the Five Nations warred and routed them out; the Cayugas for a time held a number captive, but the nation and the language are now exterminated and extinct.”
(Murray 1908 pg. 46)

Natchez Indians of Mississippi, in reference to an ancient race of Indian who preceded them and eventually were defeated:
“I did not fail to ask him who these warriors of fire were. “They were,” said he, “bearded men, white but swarthy... They had come on floating villages from the side where the sun rises. They conquered the ancients of the country, of whom they killed as many as there are spears of grass in the Prairies, and in the beginning they were good friends of our brothers, but ultimately they made them submit as well as the ancients of the country, as our Suns (leaders) had foreseen and had foretold to them.””
(Swanton 1909 pg. 184)
“There is a dim but persistent tradition of a strange white race preceding the Cherokee, some of the stories even going so far as to locate their former settlements and to identify them as the authors of the ancient works found in the country. The earliest reference appears to be that of Barton in 1797, on the statement of a gentleman whom he quotes as a valuable authority upon the southern tribes. “The Cherokee tell us, that when they first arrived in the country which they inhabit, they found it possessed by certain ‘moon-eyed people,’ who could not see in the day-time. These wretches they expelled.” He seems to consider them an albino race.* Haywood, twenty-six years later, says that the invading Cherokee found “white people” near the head of the Little Tennessee, with forts extending thence down the Tennessee as far as Chickamauga creek. He gives the location of three of these forts. The Cherokee made war against them and drove them to the mouth of Big Chickamauga creek, where they entered into a treaty and agreed to remove if permitted to depart in peace. Permission being granted, they abandoned the country. Elsewhere he speaks of this extirpated white race as having extended into Kentucky and probably also into western Tennessee, according to the concurrent traditions of different tribes.” (Mooney 1902 pg. 22)
“Did not these skeletons belong to persons of the same race with those white people, who were extirpated in part, and in part driven from Kentucky, and probably also from West Tennessee, as Indian tradition reports?”
(Haywood 1823 pg. 166)
“An old Indian, in conversation with Colonel James F. Moore, of Kentucky, informed him that the western country, and particularly Kentucky, had once been inhabited by white people, but that they were exterminated by the Indians. That the last battle was fought at the falls of Ohio, and that the Indians succeeded in driving the Aborigines into a small island below the rapids, where the whole of them were cut to pieces.”
(M.H. Frost 1819; On the aborigines of the Western Countries)
“Mr. Thomas Bodley was informed by Indians of different tribes northwest of the Ohio, that they had understood from their old men, and that it had been a tradition among their several nations, that Kentucky had been settled by whites, and that they had been exterminated by war. They were of opinion that the old fortifications, now to be seen in Kentucky and Ohio, were the productions of those white inhabitants. Wappockanitta, a Shawnee chief, near a hundred and twenty years old, living on the Auglaze River, confirmed the above tradition.”
(M.H. Frost 1819; On the aborigines of the Western Countries)

[_bomgeography]

Scientist view on the topic

“A recent survey of European mtDNA has demonstrated the presence of the same “other” haplotype motif in modern European populations, in which it is called “Haplogroup X.”” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)
On the basis of genetic analysis of some serum and red-cell protein polymorphisms, Szathmary and Reed and Szathmary et al. were able to reveal the presence of "Caucasian" alleles in the southeastern Ojibwa and to give an estimate of Caucasian admixture of -30%; however, more recent data on other autosomal locus polymorphisms indicate that the genetic admixture may be as great as 50%.
(mtDNA and Y Chromosome-Specific Polymorphisms in Modern Ojibwa: Implications about the Origin of Their Gene Pool)

[_tapirrider]

Scientist view on the topic

“A recent survey of European mtDNA has demonstrated the presence of the same “other” haplotype motif in modern European populations, in which it is called “Haplogroup X.”” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)
On the basis of genetic analysis of some serum and red-cell protein polymorphisms, Szathmary and Reed and Szathmary et al. were able to reveal the presence of "Caucasian" alleles in the southeastern Ojibwa and to give an estimate of Caucasian admixture of -30%; however, more recent data on other autosomal locus polymorphisms indicate that the genetic admixture may be as great as 50%.
(mtDNA and Y Chromosome-Specific Polymorphisms in Modern Ojibwa: Implications about the Origin of Their Gene Pool)

Why do you continue to use outdated and older publications to make claims of caucasian that are no longer made by scientists?

[_tapirrider]

Let's see what Native American tradition says concerning the topic

Concerning Hattera Indians of North Carolina:
“These Hattera tell us, that several of their Ancestors were white People, and could talk in a Book, as we do; the Truth of which is confirmed by gray eyes being found frequently amongst these Indians, and no others.”
(John Lawson 1709 pg. 62)

David McKane, this is a classic example of your cherry picking. You quoted from a particular reference that has nothing to do with ancient whites in the Americas. Perhaps you have twisted and distorted a writing to mean something that you want it to, and not what it says. Here is a link to the source:

https://archive.org/stream/newvoyagetocarol00laws#page/62/mode/2up

You left out a very important part of the paragraph when you quoted from it. Here it is in full.

A farther Confirmation of this we have from the Hatteras Indians, who either then lived on Ronoak-Island, or much frequented it. These tell us, that several of their Ancestors were white People, and could talk in a Book, as we do; the Truth of which is confirm'd by gray Eyes being found frequently amongst these Indians, and no others. They value themselves extremely for their Affinity to the English, and are ready to do them all friendly Offices. It is probable, that this Settlement miscarry'd for want of timely Supplies from England; or thro' the Treachery of the Natives, for we may reasonably suppose that the English were forced to cohabit with them, for Relief and Conversation; and that in process of Time, they conform'd themselves to the Manners of their Indian Relations. And thus we see, how apt Humane Nature is to degenerate.

What this is actually about is the lost colony of Ronoak and that living American Indians at a later time allegedly claimed to be descended from some of it's members.

If you did this on purpose, you are dishonest. If it was an honest mistake because you did not comprehend what you read, then from this point forward you have no excuse to continue using this quote because you now have the facts.