Book of Mormon Evidence

[_Lemmie]

You continue to ignore the fact that the hopewell civilization in artifacts civilzation timeline and DNA match the Nephites.
Archeologist aren't concerend with matching the hopewell with the Nephites. They don't care about the Book of Mormon and probably have no clue about the Nephites. If you want archeologist to say that the hopewell match the Nephites when they have no idea who they are you will be disappointed. As people who are familiar with nephites see the Nephites in the hopewell it's obvious something you continue to ignore. But I would agree that specialized hopewell archeologist have no clue who the Nephites are no are they qualified to make such a comparison. If you make a checklist and compare the hopewell and Nephites you can go down the list and mark them all off.

speaking of fictional stories that actual archaeologists ignore...

The absence of proof of leprechauns is not proof of absence. A careful reading of leprechaun lore will lead one to understand that the original Celts and Irish often were not familiar with things that we take for granted today. Thus the use of "loan words." For example, a person not familiar with Mormon apologetics might use phrases like "grasping at straws," "house of cards," or "trying to unring the bell" even though these words are meant to refer to what we familiarly call "Mormon apologetics."

Similarly, "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow" does not necessarily mean a "pot" of "gold" at the "end" of a "rainbow."

Another reason many people jump to conclusions about the alleged non-existence of leprechauns is that leprechauns represented only a small fraction of the native people of Ireland in a relatively small geographic area. The leprechauns likely adopted the native culture already present in Ireland, so that it may be difficult to detect the leprechaun heritage among the things we usually associate with people from the Emerald Isle---like red hair, bad tempers, fistfights, habitual drunkenness, and the Potato Famine.

U2, a well-known Irish rock band, also shows many parallels between certain of their lyrics and things that are small, lucky, or have riches---as, for example, their song "Silver and Gold", which has clear parallels to the gold that leprechauns were said to possess.

While the lack of leprechaun DNA has been touted by critics as "proof" that leprechauns did not exist, we must be careful in interpreting the data. Leprechauns likely interbred with the much larger native Irish population, thus diluting the traces of their DNA that one would expect to find if the leprechaun population had been much larger and dominant. Genetic drift and genetic bottleneck also likely masked many traces of leprechaun DNA. I don't know why that would be, but this sounds authoritative and most people will be impressed by scientific-sounding terms without realizing that I'm just trying to sound smart to distract from my arguing from ignorance.

In regard to leprechaun being among the ancestors of the Irish, another compelling parallel is the common phrase, "the luck of the Irish." Leprechauns were reputed to bring good luck, and it is striking that a trait that was once associate with leprechauns has come to be applied to the Irish in general.

In summary, the critics have been far too quick to dismiss the so-called "lack of evidence of leprechauns." Strong cultural parallels and the possibility of DNA being diluted among the larger Irish population suggest that the debate is far from over.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30431&start=231

Darth J, the gift that keeps on giving...

[_bomgeography]

You continue to ignore the fact that the hopewell civilization in artifacts civilzation timeline and DNA match the Nephites.
Archeologist aren't concerend with matching the hopewell with the Nephites. They don't care about the Book of Mormon and probably have no clue about the Nephites. If you want archeologist to say that the hopewell match the Nephites when they have no idea who they are you will be disappointed. As people who are familiar with Nephites see the Nephites in the hopewell it's obvious something you continue to ignore. But I would agree that specialized hopewell archeologist have no clue who the Nephites are no are they qualified to make such a comparison. If you make a checklist and compare the hopewell and Nephites you can go down the list and mark them all off.

speaking of fictional stories that actual archaeologists ignore...

The absence of proof of leprechauns is not proof of absence. A careful reading of leprechaun lore will lead one to understand that the original Celts and Irish often were not familiar with things that we take for granted today. Thus the use of "loan words." For example, a person not familiar with Mormon apologetics might use phrases like "grasping at straws," "house of cards," or "trying to unring the bell" even though these words are meant to refer to what we familiarly call "Mormon apologetics."

Similarly, "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow" does not necessarily mean a "pot" of "gold" at the "end" of a "rainbow."

Another reason many people jump to conclusions about the alleged non-existence of leprechauns is that leprechauns represented only a small fraction of the native people of Ireland in a relatively small geographic area. The leprechauns likely adopted the native culture already present in Ireland, so that it may be difficult to detect the leprechaun heritage among the things we usually associate with people from the Emerald Isle---like red hair, bad tempers, fistfights, habitual drunkenness, and the Potato Famine.

U2, a well-known Irish rock band, also shows many parallels between certain of their lyrics and things that are small, lucky, or have riches---as, for example, their song "Silver and Gold", which has clear parallels to the gold that leprechauns were said to possess.

While the lack of leprechaun DNA has been touted by critics as "proof" that leprechauns did not exist, we must be careful in interpreting the data. Leprechauns likely interbred with the much larger native Irish population, thus diluting the traces of their DNA that one would expect to find if the leprechaun population had been much larger and dominant. Genetic drift and genetic bottleneck also likely masked many traces of leprechaun DNA. I don't know why that would be, but this sounds authoritative and most people will be impressed by scientific-sounding terms without realizing that I'm just trying to sound smart to distract from my arguing from ignorance.

In regard to leprechaun being among the ancestors of the Irish, another compelling parallel is the common phrase, "the luck of the Irish." Leprechauns were reputed to bring good luck, and it is striking that a trait that was once associate with leprechauns has come to be applied to the Irish in general.

In summary, the critics have been far too quick to dismiss the so-called "lack of evidence of leprechauns." Strong cultural parallels and the possibility of DNA being diluted among the larger Irish population suggest that the debate is far from over.

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... &start=231

Darth J, the gift that keeps on giving...

Keep ignoring the facts because that is all you can do

[_tapirrider]

If you can provide scientific evidence of how Middle East people arrived in North America I will gladly concede. you and I know this evidence does not exist

Why do you ignore the fact that Kennewick man was already in America long before the Book of Mormon and Bible timelines? Is your reason for ignoring that because you don't want to accept the evidence of how haplogroup x arrived in America? Do you also ignore the fact that he was before Adam? Timelines based on radiocarbon cannot be arbitrarily ignored just because they don't support what you want.

Now for the evidence of how haplogroup x arrived in America. LDS scientist Dr. Ugo Perego addressed this seven years ago in a scientific study, published in a credible journal of science. See page 5 of the pdf file at this link.
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(08)01618-7.pdf

According to environmental
and paleoecological data, such a path existed and
was represented by the ice-free corridor between the Laurentide
and Cordilleran ice sheets, which opened approximately
15 kya [5] or possibly was never completely closed [38].
Through such a corridor, where some glacial-refuge areas
have been recently identified [39], X2a could have moved
from Beringia directly into the North American regions located
east of the Rocky Mountains. This latter scenario would imply
that the X2a expansion in America occurred in the Great Plains
region, where the terminal part of the glacial corridor ended,
and is in complete agreement with both the extent of diversity
and distribution of X2a observed in modern Native American
populations.

A more recent publication again addressed the erroneous claims of how haplogroup x arrived in America.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10. ... 0000000040

Concerning the Book of Mormon migration theory being promoted by Meldrum and by you David:

This
hypothesis is undermined, though, by four key findings:
X2a is not found in the Middle East, none of the X2
lineages present in the Middle East are immediately
ancestral to X2a, the date of coalescence for X2a
(14,200–17,000 cal year BP) significantly precedes the
hypothesized migration from the Middle East (Perego
et al. 2009), and haplogroup X2a was present in
North America far earlier than the hypothesized
Hebrew migration, having been found in the
8690–8400 cal year BP Kennewick Man remains from
Washington state (Rasmussen et al. 2015). Thus, X2a
does not provide any evidence for an ancient Hebrew
migration from the Middle East to North America.

David, you and I both know that you will not concede.

[_tapirrider]

You continue to ignore the fact that the hopewell civilization in artifacts civilzation timeline and DNA match the Nephites.
Archeologist aren't concerend with matching the hopewell with the Nephites. They don't care about the Book of Mormon and probably have no clue about the Nephites. If you want archeologist to say that the hopewell match the Nephites when they have no idea who they are you will be disappointed. As people who are familiar with Nephites see the Nephites in the hopewell it's obvious something you continue to ignore. But I would agree that specialized hopewell archeologist have no clue who the Nephites are no are they qualified to make such a comparison. If you make a checklist and compare the hopewell and Nephites you can go down the list and mark them all off.

David McKane, you couldn't be more wrong. It is a fact that the theory of ancient Israelites coming to America is almost as old as Columbus' arrival in the New World. The modern consensus of archaeologists and scientists has been arrived at after hundreds of years of disputes over this claim. This consensus is evidence based and supportable, while claims such as yours about the Hopewell don't hold up. Add in the fact that you use known hoax artifacts and cherry pick, ignoring anything of credibility that doesn't support your position leaves you without even a leg to stand on.

This book is a good read about the history of the theories of how American Indians got to America. It covers the ancient Hebrew ideas as well as many others. You can get a copy from your local library with interlibrary loan:

Origins of the American Indians: European concepts, 1492-1729 by Lee Eldridge Huddleston; University of Texas. Institute of Latin American Studies
http://www.worldcat.org/title/origins-o ... clc/418280

[_bomgeography]

You continue to ignore the fact that the hopewell civilization in artifacts civilzation timeline and DNA match the Nephites.
Archeologist aren't concerend with matching the hopewell with the Nephites. They don't care about the Book of Mormon and probably have no clue about the Nephites. If you want archeologist to say that the hopewell match the Nephites when they have no idea who they are you will be disappointed. As people who are familiar with Nephites see the Nephites in the hopewell it's obvious something you continue to ignore. But I would agree that specialized hopewell archeologist have no clue who the Nephites are no are they qualified to make such a comparison. If you make a checklist and compare the hopewell and Nephites you can go down the list and mark them all off.

David McKane, you couldn't be more wrong. It is a fact that the theory of ancient Israelites coming to America is almost as old as Columbus' arrival in the New World. The modern consensus of archaeologists and scientists has been arrived at after hundreds of years of disputes over this claim. This consensus is evidence based and supportable, while claims such as yours about the Hopewell don't hold up. Add in the fact that you use known hoax artifacts and cherry pick, ignoring anything of credibility that doesn't support your position leaves you without even a leg to stand on.

This book is a good read about the history of the theories of how American Indians got to America. It covers the ancient Hebrew ideas as well as many others. You can get a copy from your local library with interlibrary loan:

Origins of the American Indians: European concepts, 1492-1729 by Lee Eldridge Huddleston; University of Texas. Institute of Latin American Studies
http://www.worldcat.org/title/origins-o ... clc/418280

Your right that explorers and historians and even some native Americans from 16th century to the 21 century have believed that native Americans are from Hebrew decent or are of the lost 10 tribes of Israel. For good reason the evidence presents its self in language and culture and artifacts.

I don't think you can accept hopewell artifacts and civilzation matching up with the Nephites and by the way none of the hopewell artifacts are fakes hoaxes etc.

[_Lemmie]

Your right that explorers and historians and even some native Americans from 16th century to the 21 century have believed that native Americans are from Hebrew decent or are of the lost 10 tribes of Israel. For good reason the evidence presents its self in language and culture and artifacts.

I don't think you can accept hopewell artifacts and civilzation matching up with the Nephites and by the way none of the hopewell artifacts are fakes hoaxes etc.

And you are right that Darth J's fiction does a better job than yours at summarizing the utter lack of thought, research, and scholarly analysis in your position.

It's worth another read:

The absence of proof of leprechauns is not proof of absence. A careful reading of leprechaun lore will lead one to understand that the original Celts and Irish often were not familiar with things that we take for granted today. Thus the use of "loan words." For example, a person not familiar with Mormon apologetics might use phrases like "grasping at straws," "house of cards," or "trying to unring the bell" even though these words are meant to refer to what we familiarly call "Mormon apologetics."

Similarly, "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow" does not necessarily mean a "pot" of "gold" at the "end" of a "rainbow."

Another reason many people jump to conclusions about the alleged non-existence of leprechauns is that leprechauns represented only a small fraction of the native people of Ireland in a relatively small geographic area. The leprechauns likely adopted the native culture already present in Ireland, so that it may be difficult to detect the leprechaun heritage among the things we usually associate with people from the Emerald Isle---like red hair, bad tempers, fistfights, habitual drunkenness, and the Potato Famine.

U2, a well-known Irish rock band, also shows many parallels between certain of their lyrics and things that are small, lucky, or have riches---as, for example, their song "Silver and Gold", which has clear parallels to the gold that leprechauns were said to possess.

While the lack of leprechaun DNA has been touted by critics as "proof" that leprechauns did not exist, we must be careful in interpreting the data. Leprechauns likely interbred with the much larger native Irish population, thus diluting the traces of their DNA that one would expect to find if the leprechaun population had been much larger and dominant. Genetic drift and genetic bottleneck also likely masked many traces of leprechaun DNA. I don't know why that would be, but this sounds authoritative and most people will be impressed by scientific-sounding terms without realizing that I'm just trying to sound smart to distract from my arguing from ignorance.

In regard to leprechaun being among the ancestors of the Irish, another compelling parallel is the common phrase, "the luck of the Irish." Leprechauns were reputed to bring good luck, and it is striking that a trait that was once associate with leprechauns has come to be applied to the Irish in general.

In summary, the critics have been far too quick to dismiss the so-called "lack of evidence of leprechauns." Strong cultural parallels and the possibility of DNA being diluted among the larger Irish population suggest that the debate is far from over.
http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... &start=231

[_tapirrider]

Your right that explorers and historians and even some native Americans from 16th century to the 21 century have believed that native Americans are from Hebrew decent or are of the lost 10 tribes of Israel. For good reason the evidence presents its self in language and culture and artifacts.

I don't think you can accept hopewell artifacts and civilzation matching up with the Nephites and by the way none of the hopewell artifacts are fakes hoaxes etc.

David, I highly suggest you get a copy of that book I listed. Of course I'm right that the idea of American Indians originated from ancient Hebrews has been around for nearly 500 years. But you are wrong in your claim that the evidence presents itself in language, culture and artifacts. It does not. Good reason and sound research has firmly established that your ideas are not in agreement with truth or reality.

I have no problem accepting that the timeline of the Hopewell matches up with the Book of Mormon timeline of Lehi. But then, so does the Mayan timeline. And the Etruscan timeline and the timelines of many other cultures too.

I have explained to you before that authentic Hopewell artifacts are not what you claim them to be. The actual meanings and purposes of those objects has nothing to do with Hebrew or the Book of Mormon. One thing that entertains me with you David is that whenever I point out that you do in fact make use of known hoax artifacts, you try to set that aside by referencing real items. They both exist but are vastly different. The fact that you use the Michigan relics, the Newark Decalogue stone, elephant effigy pipes, etc. stands on its own as your error. The existence of authentic artifacts that don't match those hoax objects and are entirely different does not lessen your error. And you add to your mistake by misinterpreting and misrepresenting those real items.

One of the most difficult things I faced was finally realizing that the Book of Mormon is not real. I was once like you at a point in my life several years ago. But when I finally accepted the truth and realized that there never was any Nephites or Lamanites or Lehi or Jaradites in the Americas, my understanding of real, living people and their true history changed for the better.

David, get Huddleston book from your library and read it. And don't try to tell me that there are American Indians in the 21st century who believe they are from ancient Hebrews. I have already shredded your claims about the Central Band of Cherokee. They are nothing but whites pretending to be Indians. There are no credible historians in the 21st century who maintain that American Indians are from Hebrews. And absolutely no credible archaeologist, anthropologist, geneticist, linguist or any other reputable scholar makes such claims. It is only in the realm of pseudo, the shady, half truth world where cherry picking is a must and ignoring facts that disagree with your ideas that you will find anyone who concurs with you.

[_Maksutov]

David keeps reposting the same links to the same refuted materials. So I guess repetition is the order of the day. So:

The Book of Mormon talks about whole cities. You're the one that has to show that the Indians are equal to the Nephites. You still have to meet all the questions that Jenkins raised that Bill Hamblin couldn't answer. And neither can you. You'd rather talk about a 17th century manuscript. Your example fails. You mention a whole book but not specific issues and accounts. There's nothing that it states that would only be explained by the Book of Mormon. Many accounts by this time were culturally contaminated and information could have been projected by the missionaries or shared by early contacts. There's no way to know.

There have been all kinds of ridiculous claims made about the Native Americans. Claims by missionaries that there were Indians that spoke Latin, or Welch, or Sanskrit. Unless they are corroborated with something more, there's no reason to treat them as serious evidence.

So that's the best you've got?

I notice that you don't address the racism charge. I guess you think preaching racist stories about other people is your "religious freedom". Yeah, you're free to be a racist. And I'm free to point it out. It's bad enough for Mormons to be associated with racists like J. Reuben Clark and Warren Jeffs, but to dig up a swastika wearing, goosestepping worshipper of Hitler for an ally really shows your judgment. Thankfully, most Mormons would find your allegiance troubling.



Yes, that's Frank Collin in the middle, the one with the Adolfish 'do. He has changed his name to Frank Joseph and is the former editor of bomgeo's favorite magazine, Ancient American. Oh, and Frank is also a convicted child molester:

"During this time, according to Jeffrey Kaplan, Covington found pictures in Frank Collin's desk that linked Collin to pedophilia.[11] In what Kaplan describes as a play for power in the organization, Covington and the other NSPA members turned the evidence on Collin over to the police.[11] After Collin was arrested, Covington took over leadership of the NSPA and moved the headquarters from Chicago to North Carolina.[2] A 1980 article in The New York Times reported that "Frank Collin was expelled from the American Nazi Party for illicit intercourse with minors and the use of Nazi headquarters in Chicago for purposes of sodomy with children. The report indicates that the Nazis "tipped" the police who arrested Collin.[12] Collin was convicted of child molestation[11][13] and sentenced in 1979 to seven years in prison at the Pontiac Correctional Center. He served three years.[11]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Collin#Downfall

Hey, at least I don't see Brant Gardner or Dan Peterson hanging out with this guy.

[_Themis]

The current theory of Middle East People migrating to the attic makes no sense there is no scientific evidence for it

Umm no. tapirrider has already provided you evidence, but there is a lot more. The whole human race migrated out of Africa through the middle east. You want to complain that groups in the middle east couldn't migrate to the America's 10's of thousands of years ago but want to believe they could a few thousand years ago.

Now why does it make no sense. People migrate over time and they had many thousands of years to move into areas all over Asia with no geographical barriers.

[Guest]

The current theory of Middle East People migrating to the attic makes no sense there is no scientific evidence for it

Umm no. tapirrider has already provided you evidence, but there is a lot more. The whole human race migrated out of Africa through the middle east. You want to complain that groups in the middle east couldn't migrate to the America's 10's of thousands of years ago but want to believe they could a few thousand years ago.

Now why does it make no sense. People migrate over time and they had many thousands of years to move into areas all over Asia with no geographical barriers.

Because there is no evidence Native American haplo group x ever set foot in Siberia or central and east Asia. There is a tiny group of haplo group x who went to the Altains but this group is not related to the Native American haplo group x. See map of the distribution of x. It's common sense x migrated to more life sustaining regions of the world not to the arctic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)#/media/File%3AHaplogroup_X_(mtDNA).PNG

A trans ocean migration a few thousand years ago makes total sense read the Book of Mormon and look into the fact that Polynesian and Australian DNA is found in the americas

“Three Amazonian groups—Suruí, Karitiana and Xavante—all had more in common with Australasians than any group in Siberia. “