Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

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_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

MCB wrote:...targeted passages of Swedenborg.
...


I think that William H. Whitsitt's speculation that Rigdon read Swedenborg,
and parroted the European seer in latter day scripture is too simplistic a
viewpoint to merit much consideration.

Unless we can discover whole paragraphs of Swedenborg in Rigdon's writings,
or in the LDS Standard Works, I don't think plagiarism can be demonstrated.

On the other hand, Swedenborg did have a noticeable impact upon the fringes
of American religion. He had an itinerant disciple in the person of Johnny
Appleseed in the Ohio Valley -- at a time Spalding was in the area. Another
religionist echoing Swedenborg was Abel M. Sargent, father-in-law to a
Mormon apostle, and even more enthusiastic than was Johnny, in spreading
latter day prophetic religion in that same Ohio River Valley. Sargent had a
big following in Washington County, Pennsylvania at about the time that
Solomon Spalding moved there.

The "New Jerusalem Church" was an active promoter of Swedenborg's
seership in the United States, and it would not be a surprise if we discovered
that some early Mormons had been well acquainted with that organization.

So -- I suppose that if Smith and Rigdon were influenced by Swedenborg,
that impact need not have come directly from the Swedish seer's books. I
am not hopeful of every uncovering any direct linkage.

Rather, I see Swedenborg as just another part of the turn of the century
zeitgeist of the early 1800s. He and others had an impact upon Mormon
origins, but we may never be able to measure that influence directly.

I'm not saying that Swedenborg was a 100% fraud -- but you might add
Aiken's 1823 "Memoirs of Religious Impostors" to your reading list. I assume
that any religious con-man, hoping to get "into the business," would have
picked up a few hints from that sort of popular literature.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

GlennThigpen wrote:...
very strange for a document supposedly authored by the signer.



Very strange that Rev. Patterson did not denounce and deny the
contents? He lived many more years in the area -- as did Williams.
Apostle Page had ample opportunity to refute the published Patterson
statement. What I find strange is that no Mormon has ever made
the attempt -- at least I know of none while Patterson was yet alive.

But, before you will even consider the possibility that Spalding submitted
a biblical-style manuscript to Patterson, I suppose I shall have to cite
more than just Leffingwell. How many additional witnesses do you require,
just to concede the possibility?

Remember that Matt Roper has left you an escape hatch out of this
problem. He concedes that the Roman story went through more than one
draft -- and the Roman story contains passages of made-up ancient
scripture, some of which is in the "thee and thou" style of language. For
all you (and Roper) might know, Spalding submitted a better, expanded
draft of the Roman story, containing a great deal more "thee and thou"
talk -- and it got used for toilet paper long before Hurlbut ever opened
any hair trunks in Hartwick, New York.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_MCB
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _MCB »

No, I don't see Swedenborg as a religious fraud. I think he was a schizophrenic with a messiah complex.

He did have an immense effect on the culture of the time. There are both similarities and differences. Right now I am reading his beliefs on the Trinity.

Spalding's Romance of Celes seems to have had some Swedenborgian influence.

His vocabulary and imagery are much more well developed than the Book of Mormon. It seems that Spalding could have been influenced by Swedenborg. And, as others have stated, Rigdon and the others became acquainted with him later, after the Book of Mormon was written.
Unless we can discover whole paragraphs of Swedenborg in Rigdon's writings,
or in the LDS Standard Works,
No, I don't see that. However, I do see a lot of borrowing of ideas. And rejection of ideas.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

Uncle Dale wrote:
GlennThigpen wrote:...
very strange for a document supposedly authored by the signer.



Very strange that Rev. Patterson did not denounce and deny the
contents? He lived many more years in the area -- as did Williams.
Apostle Page had ample opportunity to refute the published Patterson
statement. What I find strange is that no Mormon has ever made
the attempt -- at least I know of none while Patterson was yet alive.

UD


The Williams opus came out the same year that Page and Small interviewed Patterson. Page quoted the alleged Patterson statement in his pamphlet and also printed the contradictory item printed by Howe in "Mormonism Unvailed" that he had never seen the manuscript. Page made a note of that in his pamphlet.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

MCB wrote:

Spalding's Romance of Celes seems to have had some Swedenborgian influence.

His vocabulary and imagery are much more well developed than the Book of Mormon. It seems that Spalding could have been influenced by Swedenborg. And, as others have stated, Rigdon and the others became acquainted with him later, after the Book of Mormon was written.


There is good evidence that the Romance of Celes is not the work of the celebrity of whom we write so much, but another Solomon Spalding, a kinsman, written in his wife's hand.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_MCB
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _MCB »

Glenn, I acknowledge that there is some argument about that. Swedenborg influenced Mormonism.
He did have an immense effect on the culture of the time.
Basically, my contention is that the scriptures and teachings of Mormonism are products of the early 19th century. Swedenborg is just one more piece of evidence towards that contention. There is nothing ancient about Mormonism, other than what was borrowed from the Bible
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

MCB wrote: Basically, my contention is that the scriptures and teachings of Mormonism are products of the early 19th century. Swedenborg is just one more piece of evidence towards that contention. There is nothing ancient about Mormonism, other than what was borrowed from the Bible


Especially that part about eternal marriages and families. What part of the nineteenth century did that come from?

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

GlennThigpen wrote:...
the contradictory item printed by Howe in "Mormonism Unvailed" that he
had never seen the manuscript...



Where did Howe get such information?

But, perhaps it is true -- and the Christian minister was a liar,
either in the message conveyed to Howe or in the message
conveyed to Williams -- or in both instances.

And perhaps Leffingwell was also a liar.

And Spalding's widow was a liar, when she said he husband wrote
something in the biblical style -- as was Redick McKee, when he
said the Spalding story he saw reminded him of Maccabees.

Perhaps they, and Abner Jackson, and several other people were
all anti-Mormon liars, out to destroy God's One True Church.

I suppose that is a possibility. At least it makes more sense to say that,
than to say that all these people were injected with false memories
by D.P. Hurlbut.

And we can move several notches up the food chain -- from Matt Roper's
views on multiple manuscripts -- all the way up to the prophet, seer,
revelator and translator himself. Joseph F. Smith conveyed the counsel
that these witnesses were evil -- minions of the Devil, or at least his
hopeful helpers in attempting to bring down Christ's restored gospel.

It might be easier for all involved, if we simply let Joseph F. Smith speak
for the Church and for Divinity, and concluded that memory substitution
is a poor choice, no matter which side of the struggle we are on.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

Uncle Dale wrote:
GlennThigpen wrote:...
the contradictory item printed by Howe in "Mormonism Unvailed" that he
had never seen the manuscript...



Where did Howe get such information?


He wrote to Patterson asking him about the manuscript. That was in Patterson's reply.

But, perhaps it is true -- and the Christian minister was a liar,
either in the message conveyed to Howe or in the message
conveyed to Williams -- or in both instances.

And perhaps Leffingwell was also a liar.

And Spalding's widow was a liar, when she said he husband wrote
something in the biblical style -- as was Redick McKee, when he
said the Spalding story he saw reminded him of Maccabees.


There are a lot of contradictions in and among those witnesses, to be sure.

Perhaps they, and Abner Jackson, and several other people were
all anti-Mormon liars, out to destroy God's One True Church.

I suppose that is a possibility. At least it makes more sense to say that,
than to say that all these people were injected with false memories
by D.P. Hurlbut.


The only contention concerning false memories and Hurlbut are the "Conneaut Eight".

It might be easier for all involved, if we simply let Joseph F. Smith speak
for the Church and for Divinity, and concluded that memory substitution
is a poor choice, no matter which side of the struggle we are on.

UD


Actually, memory substitution is probably the best choice, rather than labeling them liars. That seems to be the consensus of most LDS and non LDS except for the small cadre of Spalding proponents. It is a very real phenomenon.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

GlennThigpen wrote:...He wrote to Patterson asking him about the manuscript.
That was in Patterson's reply.


So you have evidence that E.D. Howe wrote a letter to Robert Patterson
and that Patterson replied, in a letter written to Howe?

Would you be so kind as to show us those letters...

...or:

In some way Hurlbut learned of Solomon Spaulding who wrote
a Fiction at Conneaut O., in 1810 and 11 which he called
Manuscript Found. John Spaulding a brother of Solomon
directed him to Pittsburgh Pa where Solomon had taken
his manuscript to have it printed.
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/CA ... 120088-3a1

It was inferred at once that some light might be shed upon this
subject, and the mystery revealed, by applying to Patterson &
Lambdin, in Pittsburgh. But here again death had interposed a
barrier. That establishment was dissolved and broken up many
years since, and Lambdin died about eight years ago.
Mr. Patterson says...
http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/1834howf.htm#pg289


...
Actually, memory substitution is probably the best choice, rather than labeling them liars...


Has there been anybody closer to God, who has given counsel on this
question, than Joseph F. Smith? If so, then somebody at a higher level
of authority than that official (acting President when he wrote -- but
later he aced out Cannon to become actual President) should be consulted.

Joseph Smith, Jr. himself offered his refutation in Washington, D.C.,
early in 1840 -- but nobody seems to have kept a copy of his speech.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
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