Divining Rods and DCP

[_Nightlion]

Mosiah 8: 13
13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.

Would not hurt the discussion any if a few of you guys were better read.;)

You do know, of course, that Joseph Smith wrote this himself.
Does that not give you pause?

How is it that non-believers carry on like they own truth?
There is no authority in the collective of a learned consensus.
A consensus can go off the deep end like lemmings to the cliffs.

The ownership of truth resides in him who comprehends the end from the beginning. That ain't anybody you know of, and certainly no one you could possibly agree with. Your search for truth denies the only possible source to begin with. Ahem!

You see the rationale I trust. If human consensus is the keeper of truth, then truth is doomed to fall in upon itself, eventually. Man does not have the capability to sustain truth. It is an obvious and foregone conclusion of history. In other words; consensus truth that abides without a claim upon the infinite is false always and unable to remain.

[_mrash]

The Amazing Randi, a magician and famed debunker of psychics and hoaxers, has a standing $1 million challenge to anyone that can prove paranormal activity, including use of a divining rod in a controlled environment. His challenge has yet to be claimed by anyone using a divining rod. To quote from Randi's site: "No, dowsing does not work, and the majority of claims made for the JREF million-dollar prize are directed at this remarkable self-delusion."
http://www.randi.org/site/

I'll preface my thoughts by noting that, believe it or not, I'm typically skeptical of claims that fall into the supernatural (as surprising as this may sound coming from a believing Mormon). I'm a fan and frequent consumer of both Skeptic Magazine as well as the Skeptical Inquirer. Personally, I tend to automatically reject dowsing because it doesn't seem to jive with what I understand about nature from a scientific approach. Having said this I've never tried it myself (but still suspect I'd have a hard time believing it actually works).

Many years ago I recall reading an article in Omni (I know, not exactly a scientific journal) about dowsing that claimed (if I can ever find the article I think it provided sources & footnotes) that dowsing was used in Vietnam to search for mines and by power companies to find lost lines. According to the article the power companies that used them had pretty good success.

What caught my eye in this thread was the comment about James Randi. I love most of his stuff and think he does a great service. He did an experiment to determine the success rate of dowsing (for his $1M challenge) &, of course, the dowsers lost.

A few years(?) after the experiment, however, I saw a show by Arthur C. Clarke (I used to watch his shows all the time) where he talked about dowsing and didn't think Randi gave a fair conclusion to the test. I just found the video of the show on-line.
http://www.psychicscience.org/viddows1.aspx

The part where Clarke questions Randi's conclusion can be found in part three at about 2minutes in.

This doesn't mean that dowsing works but I found it interesting that Clarke wasn't hasty to brush it aside completely.

Of course maybe newer tests have been made since then. And, as noted at the opening of this post, I personally tend to think that dowsing can't work.

Mike Ash

[Guest]

Howdy, Mike.

Thank you for sharing your insights regarding diving rods. They were very interesting. I’d like to know what your thoughts are concerning seer stones, since they seemed to have played a somewhat larger role in Joseph’s career as “village seer.” And in any case, the Book of Mormon was certainly not translated with a forked stick.

For what it’s worth, I am a secular Mormon who embraces Mormonism as a culture and a community. I consider the Book of Mormon to be a source of sociological, anthropological and literary truth but, alas, not of literal truth.

[_Corpsegrinder]

Would not hurt the discussion any if a few of you guys were better read.;)

In all fairness to us heretics, we’re only discussing garden-variety seer stones, such as the one Joseph Smith acquired from Sally Chase on extended loan. I doubt any of us are so foolish as to mess around with the more dangerous Nephite Interpreters which, I take it, are intended for professional use only.

But I’d be very interested if you’d happen to know where I could get a set of Nephite Interpreters on the cheap with no questions asked…

[_DrW]

Many years ago I recall reading an article in Omni (I know, not exactly a scientific journal) about dowsing that claimed (if I can ever find the article I think it provided sources & footnotes) that dowsing was used in Vietnam to search for mines and by power companies to find lost lines. According to the article the power companies that used them had pretty good success.
http://www.psychicscience.org/viddows1.aspx
Mike Ash

Mike,

As with the truth claims of the LDS Church, perhaps you need to take some of these articles you cite with a grain of salt. Why not try out some of the skepticism that say you read about?

For example, why not ask yourself why a power company would be dowsing for lost power lines when relatively inexpensive devices have been available for locating underground powerlines and pipes for more than 40 years.

More modern devices of this type are available that can operate in active and passive mode. They can distinguish underground pipes from underground power lines, telephone lines and even underground fiber optic cables (with tracers).

Most metal detectors rely on the change in inductance of a magnetic coil induced by nearby conductors (metal). More modern devices actually transmit an RF signal that induces a small current in the target object, the change in local magnetic field resulting from the induced current is then detected by the sensing coil or antenna. Ultrasensitive miniaturized fluxgate magnetometers have also been adapted to buried object detection. No dowsing required.

As reported in the New York Times, certain military leaders in Iraq thought that dowsing for landmines and explosives using expensive "wands" made in the U.K would be a good idea a few years ago. After they failed to detect explosives that killed a number of people, the Americans finally had to put a stop to it. The outcome in Viet Nam would have been similar.

Finally, I found what may have been your source for the Viet Nam dowsing story. To say that it was crackpot source would be an understatement.

Healthy skepticism is a trait that seems to be in critically short supply nowadays. In my experience, speaking as an arrogant scientistic dogmatist of course, it is one of the most valuable life skills that one can acquire.

[_Nightlion]

Would not hurt the discussion any if a few of you guys were better read.;)

In all fairness to us heretics, we’re only discussing garden-variety seer stones, such as the one Joseph Smith acquired from Sally Chase on extended loan. I doubt any of us are so foolish as to mess around with the more dangerous Nephite Interpreters which, I take it, are intended for professional use only.

But I’d be very interested if you’d happen to know where I could get a set of Nephite Interpreters on the cheap with no questions asked…

You receive your very one C-Pod for free from Jesus IF you make it to the Celestial Kingdom.
Might get one before if there is some good reason. Got gifts?

Rev. 2: 17
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

D&C 130: 11
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

What is it you would want to know anyways?

[Guest]

What is it you would want to know anyways?

I wanna use it to look at pics of hot Celestial chix.

Edited to add:

You receive your very one C-Pod for free from Jesus IF you make it to the Celestial Kingdom.

LoL! Too funny! Sorry I missed that the first time!

[_mrash]

Howdy, Mike.

Thank you for sharing your insights regarding diving rods. They were very interesting. I’d like to know what your thoughts are concerning seer stones, since they seemed to have played a somewhat larger role in Joseph’s career as “village seer.” And in any case, the Book of Mormon was certainly not translated with a forked stick.

For what it’s worth, I am a secular Mormon who embraces Mormonism as a culture and a community. I consider the Book of Mormon to be a source of sociological, anthropological and literary truth but, alas, not of literal truth.

I think the seer stones are nothing more than inanimate rocks. However, since Joseph and his followers believed in seer stones, God used them as a tool to allow Joseph to receive revelation. Joseph seems to have understood this later in life when he gave up seer stones but continued to receive revelation.

Mike Ash

[_mrash]

As with the truth claims of the LDS Church, perhaps you need to take some of these articles you cite with a grain of salt.

I do take them with a large grain of salt and I'm surprised that you read my comments and suggesting otherwise. You seemed to have misunderstood my post. I personally don't think dowsing works (but I've never tried it). Since James Randi was brought up I simply pointed out the interesting fact that Arthur C. Clark was not completely convinced by Randi's circa 1970s(?) conclusion of his dowsing experiment.

I pointed out the sketchy recollection from the Omi magazine article (which I read 20-25 years ago) simply because it noted some interesting things about the past utilization of dowsing. I never claimed that the article was beyond skepticism or that it proved that dowsing work or that it was 100% accurate (or even that I recalled all the details accurately)... it was simply interesting stuff.

When I lived in Colorado (nearly 25 years ago), my boss (a devout Catholic) built a cabin wherein he hired a dowser to find water so he could put in a well. My boss (an educated man and wonderful influence in my life) firmly believed that the dowsing work.

I would suggest other reasons why the dowser found water, but it was interesting that my boss hired a dowser.

"Interesting" stuff. Nothing more. No reason to try to read anything into my comments. Just sharing what I thought others on this thread might find of interest considering the topic under discussion.

Mike Ash

[_Themis]

I think the seer stones are nothing more than inanimate rocks. However, since Joseph and his followers believed in seer stones, God used them as a tool to allow Joseph to receive revelation. Joseph seems to have understood this later in life when he gave up seer stones but continued to receive revelation.

Mike Ash

I realize you may be just expressing an opinion, but do you have evidence that Joseph went from viewing the seer stones as more then just inanimate rocks to viewing them later as inanimate? By what power, if any, was Joseph able to use the seer stone to find things like lost items and treasure with? Was Joseph just making that part up?