Spirituality or just emotion...?

[_Drifting]

[If the message we receive results in bad fruit (which is a subject for a different thread), then it cannot have come from a Good source. Therefore, I would offer that the jihadists are mistaken.

jo, I understand that you feel the jihadists outcome is 'bad fruit'. But that's your view and your measure based on your beliefs. Not so for the jihadists. In their world they have produced good fruit based on their beliefs. If you and I were born into their world, raised in their culture etc then it is likely that we would also see a jihadist as producing good fruit.

When it boils down to it we cannot make a balanced impartial assessment about the Holy Ghost and it's influence on us because we project our beliefs onto the feelings we believe He is generating.
We believe they aren't supported by God, they believe that are.

That is why spirituality confuses me. It confirms things based on worldly culture and morals rather than a consistent set of Heavenly morals.

[_sheryl]

jo, I understand that you feel the jihadists outcome is 'bad fruit'. But that's your view and your measure based on your beliefs. Not so for the jihadists. In their world they have produced good fruit based on their beliefs. If you and I were born into their world, raised in their culture etc then it is likely that we would also see a jihadist as producing good fruit.

When it boils down to it we cannot make a balanced impartial assessment about the Holy Ghost and it's influence on us because we project our beliefs onto the feelings we believe He is generating.
We believe they aren't supported by God, they believe that are.

That is why spirituality confuses me. It confirms things based on worldly culture and morals rather than a consistent set of Heavenly morals.

I understand your confusion Drifting.

When scripture is used to judge others, to look outside of ourselves and declare this good or this bad, there is much confusion. Not that your are doing it, only that this is common in the world and thus there is lots of confusion!

Scripture is not given as a flashlight to shine on others, but as a light to shine within ourselves. Whether or not we are hearing and following the Holy Spirit, is between us and God. If we are not, God will take the necessary action. Vengeance is mine says the Lord.

Now in the world we will see something else. We will see some claiming to be following God, and then those observing making judgments about this claim. The most detrimental occurrence is people following others simply because they claimed to be guided by God. Remember Jesus praising Peter, because he recognize the spirit in Jesus because the Father had revealed it to him. Not because Jesus sounded good, or matched his own ideas, but a mystical experience revealed that Peter should follow Jesus.

I offer, we have worldly laws to punish those who bring harm upon others while claiming to be following God, and it is good that we do. But as far as where we put our energy and our spiritual study and focus, this should be in shining that light within.

There is really no way to know what the Holy Spirit is doing in others, until it starts doing in us!

Shalom!
Sheryl

[_jo1952]

jo, I understand that you feel the jihadists outcome is 'bad fruit'. But that's your view and your measure based on your beliefs. Not so for the jihadists. In their world they have produced good fruit based on their beliefs. If you and I were born into their world, raised in their culture etc then it is likely that we would also see a jihadist as producing good fruit.

When it boils down to it we cannot make a balanced impartial assessment about the Holy Ghost and it's influence on us because we project our beliefs onto the feelings we believe He is generating.
We believe they aren't supported by God, they believe that are.

That is why spirituality confuses me. It confirms things based on worldly culture and morals rather than a consistent set of Heavenly morals.

Hi Drifting,

I think Sheryl gave a good response to your comment. All I can think to add at this point is that God has commanded us not to shed innocent blood. Since we cannot know what is in the heart of another, unless we are protecting ourselves and cause another's death in the process, as Sheryl said, "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord".

It is still confusing though. In war there will always be innocents who are killed. Even if we are the ones who caused their death during an act of war intended to protect ourselves, I think God will see this type of killing differently than a planned and deliberate killing of an innocent. I believe that is where the distinction is. I don't believe that the jihadists who become human bombs in order to kill others are doing so in self defense. I realize this appears as a very fine line. I do think that the jihadists believe they may be doing so in self defense, but I do not believe that God is the one who is influencing them to feel this way. Without getting into a very long and drawn out explanation which takes us down the road of their political views (or ours, which could appear to be in conflict with my answer), this is why I believe they are being misled.

Love,

jo

[_Franktalk]

not sure this is an agreeable statement, nor is it logical.
The limitations of human words beckons the need for the help of the Holy Spirit, it surely does not beckon the need for additional human words, or as we have admitted...more limitations.

I will comment on this. If one considers scripture as a message from God then the message is contained in all of scripture and can be found in places far removed from each other in the pages.

We are told that what is most important is the top two commandments. Love your God and love your fellow man. But then we have all of these Laws of Moses to deal with. Just how can the Law of Moses be correct and the top two commandments. It would seem that the Law of Moses extends many commands beyond the top two.

Consider this:

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

If you love your neighbor as thyself would you bring them to the judge? Would you need a judge? Would you need the Laws of Moses?

This is one of the most powerful verses in scripture. It shows how the love of God and the Love of your fellow man fulfills all the law. Now I ask is this a message from God? Does this message require that one understands the love of God before the message can be understood? Since this message requires association of many verses across the Bible can it be true? Are some messages contained in links between verses? Is the message true even if it does not say this in as many words? Is the message in the interwoven nature of the words in the verses and between the verses?

I will tell you that I read this verse many times before I saw what it said. Who opened my eyes?

[_sheryl]

I will comment on this. If one considers scripture as a message from God then the message is contained in all of scripture and can be found in places far removed from each other in the pages.

We are told that what is most important is the top two commandments. Love your God and love your fellow man. But then we have all of these Laws of Moses to deal with. Just how can the Law of Moses be correct and the top two commandments. It would seem that the Law of Moses extends many commands beyond the top two.

Consider this:

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

If you love your neighbor as thyself would you bring them to the judge? Would you need a judge? Would you need the Laws of Moses?

This is one of the most powerful verses in scripture. It shows how the love of God and the Love of your fellow man fulfills all the law. Now I ask is this a message from God? Does this message require that one understands the love of God before the message can be understood? Since this message requires association of many verses across the Bible can it be true? Are some messages contained in links between verses? Is the message true even if it does not say this in as many words? Is the message in the interwoven nature of the words in the verses and between the verses?

I will tell you that I read this verse many times before I saw what it said. Who opened my eyes?

Oh my dear friend, Frank. The Holy Spirit is opening up a great understanding to you. The culmination being what is expressed in the Song of Solomon, and the question who or what is Eve?

May Your greatest understandings continue to rain down upon the people, Holy One.

Shalom!

Sheryl

[_Franktalk]

The culmination being what is expressed in the Song of Solomon, and the question who or what is Eve?

Shalom!

Sheryl

I have read the Song of Solomon several times. I just read it again. I also checked the Septuagint to see if any of the verses are incorrectly interpreted. It seems OK.

There are repeating patterns in the book. I will look into that. There are many areas that say "like" so it will be difficult to discern clearly. It may take some time. I have some thoughts but they are scattered. The sister lover connection did bring Eve and Sarah into view. And of course the love of God is all over the place. Let me have a month or two.

Frank

[_jo1952]

Hi Jo!

When we consider that all is connected, whether spiritual or material, then nothing that we can perceive is random, or standing alone by itself without any meaning. And so the layout of our universe has great depth of meaning, revealing how our inner world is likewise laid out.

Hi Sheryl,

I am thinking that perhaps even our own thoughts, which have been influenced by the experiences in the physical (In other words, our world view), also should not be considered random. As such, we can be influenced in our thoughts things that originated from within us as they have previously been influenced by the world around us, as well as by thoughts placed there by both Good spirits and well as Evil spirits. So, we have all types of originations for our thoughts. Depending upon our ability and level of discernment, we can be "trained" (if you will), to begin making distinctions about origins. And, wow, this concept alone could take pages and pages of discussion; more if we consider what various churches have taught and/or what fears they may have introduced to us so that we will not allow ourselves to go "beyond" what they want us to ponder or think about. It also appears that there are very few churches who encourage thinking outside of the box they have created and wherein they have placed God.

The material on all levels thus is an outpouring or an expression of the spiritual realms underneath it, as well as 'beyond it.'

Currently, we see through a glass darkly; though I believe that we are able to get glimpses of more and more as we understand more and more. I have yet to be able to catch more then brief moments of this; and so far there have been no distinct delineations of what I am perceiving other than the awareness that I have received unexpected and unrepeatable knowledge which has occured without an awareness of how I got there or what is actually going on when I am there. But I do know that physically, I am still in the "same" place before, during, and after it....it is my spirit which has journeyed. Obviously, I am still trying to even understand how to explain this. All I know is that when this happens "time" feels different in that so much is happening at the seemingly "same" moment. Perhaps another way to put this is that the veil has been removed from my spiritual eyes, and my spirit then experiences traveling to different levels, or "unfoldings". Always, I am overwhelmed with a sense of Love (not as we know it in a physical sense), immense humility, tremendous awe, and thankfulness, and unspeakable joy and oneness....all at the "same time". I have so much to learn.

I have learned the stars and planets are associated with the law - they move and influence the material plane in accordance to the law. And so we have been born into these personalities, all according the movement of the stars and planets, all according to the law. This is how creation comes into being and is sustained.

Although I believe that there is truth in your words, I am not able yet to identify with what it actually is that you are sharing. So I definitely need more information before I will be prepared or able to understand it.

According to the law, we are beasts, driven by a bestial nature and thus controlled by the law, reaping what we sowed, having to labor to 'pay off our debts', etc.

I think that this also happens at many levels of understanding...not just physically, but also spiritually. I am also beginning to see that "damnation" is actually our knowledge of a law or part of God's law, which we have not yet been able to attain and remain at - so to speak. In other words, being damned is being "held back" until we are able to live a particular law. The suffering is self-inflicted (though necessary in order for us to learn); but the purging needs to take place before we can continue or progress forward and closer to the Most High God (meaning Father in accordance to my definition). We are, after all, eternal...so it would seem that progression is likewise eternal. I am sure hoping that once we leave this physical realm, that all of this is going to be much easier to understand!!!

Grace though was poured out into this world through the incarnation of Yeshua Messiah, and through influxes of Grace, we are given opportunity to overcome what the law has ordained for us as beasts.

Hallelujah!

I have been thinking, as a result of my studies, something very unorthodox (today's definition). Many equate Jesus as "being" one and the same as the "word", thus many equate Jesus as being the Law without realizing it. I believe, however, they are separate. In other words, His "Law" is the Word; but He is not. He has provided the Law and fulfilled the Law which is His Word. I believe that the "Word" spoken of in 1 John 5:7 is referring to what mankind considers the "written word"; i.e. "scripture". In Heaven the "Word" is completely spiritually understood; and I think this is the distinction John was trying to convey.

We call what unfolds in our lives according to the law, fate, and what unfolds in our lives according to Grace, destiny. With Grace all things are possible, a potential beyond our imagination (our imagination and all that we can think of is according to the law).

You have such a wonderful way of expressing yourself. I would clarify to readers that you are using non-spiritual definitions by using the words "fate" and "destiny". Even with those physical meanings, your words are beautiful, and explain very well how the physical perceives what is going on. I agree with your comments about Grace (which is being used spiritually) - and I might I add, how awesome Grace is!!!

So the seven fold Spirit of Christ. Christ is likened to Clear Perfect Light that passed through the prism of creation, resulting in a seven fold Spirit. This seven fold spirit is behind everything that we can see and cannot see. It defines our inner being. It describes our solar system and the universe as a whole. We are given images of this raying out in nature, with the rainbow for example - it not being random that God selected it as a symbol of his covenant with us.

The seven fold spirit defines the spiritual realms, within us and without. Curious there is a correspondence between planets and stars and this seven fold spirit within ourselves.

This is still sinking in; and, I would like to add that it makes sense. However, as we are both aware, our levels of understanding do not take place instantly. As such, I am still at the milk stage of even being able to clearly see what this looks like inside of my own head. Please be patient with me (as if I need to ask you.....).

And my dear friend, this is not new information. It is been around since ancient times. We though have to understand the power that has been wielded in this world, to control and suppress humanity, as occurred when Rome took over the public Revelation of Jesus Christ and formed the Catholic Church. What the presences told Joseph Smith was true, all the publicly known denominations of Christianity had a distorted telling of the Gospel. But what these presences did not know is that God had protected a remnant just as he promised in the Old Testament, this remnant had to remain underground though, or it would have been destroyed.

In my current ability to understand, I would clarify that it is the general public who had lost the telling of the Gospel (to use your words); and so it was necessary, when God deemed the time was right, that Joseph Smith was called to Restore to the world what had been lost. It does not take long for mankind to distort or corrupt truth. Fortunately, the Holy Ghost is always around to help us. Also, I would offer that the USA has been a part of God's Plan for the latter days. See how it is that your own sacred remnants are able to no longer fear (at least for the time being) to be "above ground". And so I believe it is most likely happening in more ways than we may think or be aware of.

Now, I would ask something that must have gone through your own reasoning. Do you believe without question that everything you are being taught in your group is still as pure as it was at the time of Christ? Or are there aspects which you continue to question and seek guidance for from the Holy Ghost in order for you to feel comfortable that what you are being taught is not false? Thus, are there some teachings, or aspects about some teachings held by your group which you do not embrace? Inasmuch as both Jesus and the ancient Apostles taught that there were already false teachers and false prophets among the member of the church, I believe that the same is true of all churches - even in the LDS Church. However, since we have been given direction on how to discern false teachings, we can simply avoid following that teaching. In fact, I think that each one of us moves back and forth individually teaching things that may be false, and then correcting ourselves once we have greater understanding.

There are many groupings of this remnant, which is the true Apostolic succession. I belong to one who remained hidden in the Catholic Church until the 1700s and then separated though remaining very secretive until recent years, when being different than mainstream religions is no longer life threatening.

And yes, some of the information that your are asking about has been allowed to remain public in other cultures, our Eastern Religions carrying something of it in their religious traditions.

I believe without doubt that God has always communicated with His children, wherever they are, whenever their time was upon the earth. Thus, truth can be found everywhere; and the Holy Ghost will confirm and witness to us of that truth in addition to revealing new truth to our spirits. If I am beginning to understand you correctly, these are unfoldings of truth which exist within different aspects of our physical world - which can be seen with our spiritual eyes when we are able to comprehend them.

We have to understand God's love. It is not selective, or limited. It reveals all to all who are willing and capable of receiving.

Thus it is not God who does not give, it is we who are unable to receive.

So true, my beloved friend.

Shalom,

jo

[_jo1952]

Hi Jo!

You are so right on the limitations of human words, which is why the idea of a singular interpretation of living scripture is rather foolish to say the least! There are layers of interpretations unfolding in time and space, hence it is living!

Hi Sheryl!

Well said!! It is difficult conversing with individuals who have placed God in a box....though I understand that just happens to be where that individual is in their journey.

To answer your questions we first need to lay additional groundwork. Now various traditions use differing images and words to describe this delineation in scripture, but we are well founded in the Jewish model as described in the written and oral tradition, so I will speak from there.

The seven fold spirit raying actually occurs on five levels or spiritual universes - there are five spiritual universes, unfolding from one another, each with a raying out the seven fold spirit of Christ. So that one raying out unfolds into the next universe, that raying out into the next and so on.

There are many ways to describe the five universes. A simple way that fits into our personal experience is that the five universes represent Divine Will, Mind, Thought, Speech, and Action - the physical universe being part of the Universe of Action. This makes sense when we look at how we create - we do so through the Five Universes as well. Same pattern.

So far, I am understanding, and have no problems with the ideas and concepts - they make sense to me.

Another way of looking at the Universes, which ties into answering your questions, is that the Universe of Will is the Universe of Archetypes, Divine Ideals, Potential (This is the beginning of the delineation of God into Father, Holy Spirit and Son), the Universe of Mind is the Universe of the Divine Names or the Divine Attributes expressing the Ideal. The Universe of Thought is the Universe of Archangels, incredible Powers that carry and manifest the Attributes representing the Ideal. The Universe of Speech is the Universe of Hosts of Angels, or the raying out into a multiplicity of beings whom all carry these Divine Attributes to some extent, for by now we have shades and shadows in creation (the consequence of form) allowing for the introduction of evil. The Universe of Action can also be called the Universe of Manifestation, where the Ideal becomes manifested, of course at something less that the Ideal, but still representing the Archetype. (Such as we see with the Tabernacle of Moses. He was shown in vision the Ideal, and manifested a lesser version here in the physical.)

For clarification, Satan is an archangel; does this help explain why he has so much power here on the earth?

What I believe is that scripture, for the most part, is written in a language at its most simplest. It is truth which its authors have been inspired to write - and most prophets did so in a manner meant to be understood at a simpler level until an individual gains spiritual insight and is able to begin to see the multitudes of layers to be understood. Thus God obliges us with what we can understand - doing so at an easier and more plain way for us to relate to. If we continue to seek after God, He will continue to oblige. If we do not seek after Him, He still obliges us; and we are then not able to comprehend scripture at all. As you have said in so many words, it is up to us.

Everything in materiality is a lesser manifestation of the Ideal in the Highest Universe, until Jesus. What made Jesus Messiah is that he was a physical manifestation that was directly and perfected joined with all these layers upon layers of creation, in perfect alignment with the Divine Ideal at the Universe of Will. Not my will but Yours be done. His Body, then, is not just the physical but all the layers and layers of realms and universes with which he was aligned. He was the perfect manifestation of the Father in physicality, being in perfect alignment with the Son in the Universe of Will.

Now a vision of the Father can be seen in Ezekiel 1. What Ezekiel described in his vision of God, was looking into and through these Universes. For example, the four living creatures that he sees are the host of angels emanating from the Father (YHVH) and what appeared to be wheels are the hosts of angels emanating from the Holy Spirit. So that Ezekiel was seeing into the Universe of Speech, these hosts of angels being what is called a chariot or vehicle for what Ezekiel described as a likeness of a throne and a likeness of an image of a man sitting on the throne. These likenesses were actually incredible energies that Ezekiel perceived with his spiritual vision, that had the feeling of a throne and the feeling of an image of a man. The likeness of a throne is the Holy Spirit in the Universe of Mind and the likeness of an image of a man is the Father in Universe of Mind. So here, Ezekiel was seeing through the Universe of Word into the Universe of Mind. The Mind of the Father was 'Speaking' to its creation through Ezekiel.

Bear in mind that in the person of Jesus, all these things existed within in perfect alignment.

Very interesting; and it makes sense up to the point where I still make the distinction that Jesus is literally and spiritually the Son of God within the definition as is understood wherein they are completely separate Beings.

Perhaps you can see the difference? Ezekiel was gazing into these spiritual dimensions gleaning something of the Father. Jesus incarnated into flesh, embodying all of these same spiritual dimensions in perfect alignment within himself.

I do see the difference. However, as I just said, what this ultimately looks like to me is that Jesus has emanated from the Father as an individual, spiritual Being. As such, and inasmuch as His desire was to completely do only the will of Father, Father gave Jesus the power and authority to then accomplish what He has in the manner you have described.

If we are talking about a singular spiritual being appearing to us in our world as Father, we have a problem. There is only one singular being that appeared in our world that could embody the full dimensionality of the Father, and that is Jesus. The only singular angelic like that has appeared in this world capable of a full embodiment of the Father has been the Angel of the Lord, which appeared many times in the Old Testament and to John in Revelation. Jesus in the flesh, and the Angel of YHVH (the Lord) - meaning an angelic being that embodies all dimensionality of the Father in perfect alignment - are the only two singular beings that I know of that have appeared in the world embodying the dimensionality of the Father in perfect alignment.

Stephen's vision at his death, I would think was something like Ezekiel's with the Risen Christ incorporated in some way.

What did Joseph Smith see? I don't know. Given how he described it, it does not sound like a full multidimensional embodiment of the Father nor of the Son. If we want to say it was one of the rays of the seven fold spirit of Christ then we are saying that it was not the Father in fullness, but a limited aspect carrying a limited vision or perspective. Certainly not a full representation of the Ideal. But it is this way for all of us receiving visions. As Paul warned, there are dominions and principalities of evil residing in the heavenly places, and so any spiritual visions can be good, evil or some admixture. When we join with an Apostolic Succession, we learn how to and are given guidance in interpreting our visions, taking what is right and true from them. Without proper understanding of the spiritual realms and personal purification it is easy to be deceived. But yes, such visions are occurring all the time in our present world.

I know that you have trouble believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet. As you know, I do believe he is a prophet. I also believe that the Book of Mormon is indeed an authentic second Testimony of Christ which was written by the peoples God led to the Americas; and that the Book of Mormon is a partial translation of their records which God inspired Joseph to bring forth. Now, in responding to your response of not knowing what Joseph saw, I believe that it is quite possible that when Joseph began receiving visions, that he did not understand them either. Just like us, as we progress in our understanding, he did likewise; though he had the advantage of being taught and administered to in his teachings by Angels of the Lord. In fact, when we look back at our own experiences with the Holy Ghost, we will perceive them differently today because our understanding has been added upon; thus we will expound on our experiences when we relate them today. It is also likely, as with many of the other teachings taught in the New Testament, that he learned more than he was allowed to reveal. As such the innate use of the words/language he used were done in the same manner as all previous scripture (in particular, the Bible) was revealed to mankind.

Some who have them end up standing on street corners predicting the end of the world, some consider themselves prophets and try to set up new religions. Most though, or quite a few, humbly hold back asking for help and wait upon the Lord to guide them to others who can help. The Bible gives a picture that we need to emulate. Any calling from God needs to be verified by those called before us. Even Yeshua did not begin his ministry until being baptized by John the Baptist. A remnant of prophets has continued in our world since the days of Christ, and the Holy Spirit will send us to an already existing prophet if we have truly been called through a visionary experience.

You made me smile, as we can all picture individuals carrying signs on corners warning us that the end is near; and they are very sincere in their belief. I believe that as individuals, when we have experienced the Holy Ghost, we do react in humility. I would offer though, that the ancient Apostles could not keep the Good News to themselves, and went forth sharing what they knew. Likewise, Moses, who had a very distinctive responsibility, was not silently waiting; but went forth and did what God commanded him to do. Anyway, as I further study the works and writings and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, I continue to receive the witness of the Holy Ghost confirming his calling and accomplishments. I believe that he was instructed to grow a new church in order to teach the Gospel correctly, etc., because that meets the way or method mankind identifies with in the flesh. Unfortunately, man also gives way too much weight to an institution, as it is their personal relationship with God which progresses them.

I do not agree, however, with the interpretations of most members who think that the LDS Church is the only "way" or "path". No church institution can save a single person. Nonetheless, I do believe that the ordinances being currently performed by the Church are necessary; but they are merely the mechanical method of an individual to be able to enter a promise/contract with God. In other words, the LDS Church is a vehicle. Once the Millenium is ended, I believe the LDS Church will be dissolved, as will any other vehicles (religious institutions or other world "religions").

Also, I believe that since it is belief in and acceptance of Christ (which can take place in our physical body, or after mortal death), that salvation is much more easily attained than most think. However, our spiritual journey is eternal. It began before we got here, continues while we are in the flesh, and will continue after we leave the earth. Whatever spiritual understanding we obtain in the flesh is "bonus" understanding, which allows us to be that much more joyful with whatever else we have revealed to us while we are here. Thus, the quest for Exaltation will continue wherever we are until we have achieved it; even then we will continue in the eternities. Once we reach true spiritual awakening, we thirst for more and more...and if this is happening in the flesh, our quest can lead us to unexpected sources only because we were previously blind to them; yet happily we seek as our joy increases unbounded except by our own self-inflicted limitations.

I hope this has helped, dear friend.

Sheryl, you ALWAYS help!!! I love you!!

Shalom,,

jo

[_sheryl]

Good Morning My Friend!

I am thinking that perhaps even our own thoughts, which have been influenced by the experiences in the physical (In other words, our world view), also should not be considered random. As such, we can be influenced in our thoughts things that originated from within us as they have previously been influenced by the world around us, as well as by thoughts placed there by both Good spirits and well as Evil spirits. So, we have all types of originations for our thoughts. Depending upon our ability and level of discernment, we can be "trained" (if you will), to begin making distinctions about origins. And, wow, this concept alone could take pages and pages of discussion; more if we consider what various churches have taught and/or what fears they may have introduced to us so that we will not allow ourselves to go "beyond" what they want us to ponder or think about. It also appears that there are very few churches who encourage thinking outside of the box they have created and wherein they have placed God.

Indeed, Jo! We can think of our thoughts, and even our feelings as bondage, for they are limited by our personal experiencing, and so we must be open to allowing God to enlarge our box, eventually burning it completely!

And yes, nothing is random. Our thoughts are a product of who we presently are. (What we have clothed ourselves in, what is our "I", coming from our experiences, and how we perceived or interpreted them.) And so to unravel self, or deny and crucify self, as our Lord taught and mentored, and as his Apostles taught and also mentored, we must let our thoughts and feelings guide us into revealing our bondage. Remember John 3 - all must come to the Light so that they might see what they think, say and do. So what they think, say, and do, might have the Light of Christ shine upon it, revealing its source in delusions and lies.

Currently, we see through a glass darkly; though I believe that we are able to get glimpses of more and more as we understand more and more. I have yet to be able to catch more then brief moments of this; and so far there have been no distinct delineations of what I am perceiving other than the awareness that I have received unexpected and unrepeatable knowledge which has occured without an awareness of how I got there or what is actually going on when I am there. But I do know that physically, I am still in the "same" place before, during, and after it....it is my spirit which has journeyed. Obviously, I am still trying to even understand how to explain this. All I know is that when this happens "time" feels different in that so much is happening at the seemingly "same" moment. Perhaps another way to put this is that the veil has been removed from my spiritual eyes, and my spirit then experiences traveling to different levels, or "unfoldings". Always, I am overwhelmed with a sense of Love (not as we know it in a physical sense), immense humility, tremendous awe, and thankfulness, and unspeakable joy and oneness....all at the "same time". I have so much to learn.

So do I!

And yes, this is God enlarging our box,

Although I believe that there is truth in your words, I am not able yet to identify with what it actually is that you are sharing. So I definitely need more information before I will be prepared or able to understand it.

Indeed we have paradigms of reasoning that make it challenging for us at times to move in new directions in understanding.

What comes to mind is to share:

He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

but Christ is all and in all.

The picture that scripture gives us is that all things are in Christ and Christ is in all things, so right away we have an image of Christ that frees us from thinking of a singular body or personality. Christ, though he incarnated as Jesus, is beyond our understanding. And so if all is in Christ and all is Christ, then this includes the planets and the stars For any of this to make sense, we have to stop thinking of God over there and creation over here. Creation unfolded from God, a telling of this unfolding and the levels of unfolding being told in Genesis 1.

I think that this also happens at many levels of understanding...not just physically, but also spiritually. I am also beginning to see that "damnation" is actually our knowledge of a law or part of God's law, which we have not yet been able to attain and remain at - so to speak. In other words, being damned is being "held back" until we are able to live a particular law. The suffering is self-inflicted (though necessary in order for us to learn); but the purging needs to take place before we can continue or progress forward and closer to the Most High God (meaning Father in accordance to my definition). We are, after all, eternal...so it would seem that progression is likewise eternal. I am sure hoping that once we leave this physical realm, that all of this is going to be much easier to understand!!!

Oh there will be new understandings beyond our comprehension to even imagine now!

What you are expressing here is tied into a thought shared below.

Hallelujah!

I have been thinking, as a result of my studies, something very unorthodox (today's definition). Many equate Jesus as "being" one and the same as the "word", thus many equate Jesus as being the Law without realizing it. I believe, however, they are separate. In other words, His "Law" is the Word; but He is not. He has provided the Law and fulfilled the Law which is His Word. I believe that the "Word" spoken of in 1 John 5:7 is referring to what mankind considers the "written word"; i.e. "scripture". In Heaven the "Word" is completely spiritually understood; and I think this is the distinction John was trying to convey.

The Greek word translated as word in the English is actually logos. We do not have an English word alone that describes logos, which originated in Greek philosophy in 600 B. C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe.

Every time John says 'word' in our bibles he is actually saying logos. This greek word also forms all our - ology words: biology, psychology, etc. Logos or Word thus is all knowledge, all reason, including all science, all religious writings and expressions, all philosophy. Anything that man can reason and think was with God, was God in the beginning. So you see that it is not what we think that is the problem, but that what we think is limited, in a box. So just imagine all knowledge and reason and logic within all creation was contained in one man - Jesus. So indeed, sister Jo, Jesus was more than what we call 'Torah'. The Torah was the Word, but a limited expression of the Word, all that the children of Israel could receive at the time. And the Bible is the Word, but not all the Word, for the Word also includes how creation was put together, all science, how man functions and thinks, all philosophy. Everything that we can perceive, all things visible and invisible, is the word.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

So are you getting a better idea of what Christ is? :)

You have such a wonderful way of expressing yourself. I would clarify to readers that you are using non-spiritual definitions by using the words "fate" and "destiny". Even with those physical meanings, your words are beautiful, and explain very well how the physical perceives what is going on. I agree with your comments about Grace (which is being used spiritually) - and I might I add, how awesome Grace is!!!


This is still sinking in; and, I would like to add that it makes sense. However, as we are both aware, our levels of understanding do not take place instantly. As such, I am still at the milk stage of even being able to clearly see what this looks like inside of my own head. Please be patient with me (as if I need to ask you.....).

Perhaps what was shared above will add to your contemplations?

In my current ability to understand, I would clarify that it is the general public who had lost the telling of the Gospel (to use your words); and so it was necessary, when God deemed the time was right, that Joseph Smith was called to Restore to the world what had been lost. It does not take long for mankind to distort or corrupt truth. Fortunately, the Holy Ghost is always around to help us. Also, I would offer that the USA has been a part of God's Plan for the latter days. See how it is that your own sacred remnants are able to no longer fear (at least for the time being) to be "above ground". And so I believe it is most likely happening in more ways than we may think or be aware of.

Now, I would ask something that must have gone through your own reasoning. Do you believe without question that everything you are being taught in your group is still as pure as it was at the time of Christ? Or are there aspects which you continue to question and seek guidance for from the Holy Ghost in order for you to feel comfortable that what you are being taught is not false? Thus, are there some teachings, or aspects about some teachings held by your group which you do not embrace? Inasmuch as both Jesus and the ancient Apostles taught that there were already false teachers and false prophets among the member of the church, I believe that the same is true of all churches - even in the LDS Church. However, since we have been given direction on how to discern false teachings, we can simply avoid following that teaching. In fact, I think that each one of us moves back and forth individually teaching things that may be false, and then correcting ourselves once we have greater understanding.

What we are able to understand and receive of God's Truth is dependent on a few things. One until God's Truth unfolds on the physical level, it does not exist yet on the physical level and so cannot be described or talked about in human terms. And so as we evolve and can receive more, more of God's Truth can be seen and understood on a physical level. Yes Jesus was Logos in full, but what of Logos that could be revealed was then limited. But we can through his spoken (recorded) Word and through the Holy Spirit, connect with the energy or Truth behind Jesus' words, and bring down a greater understanding than man could before us. Because we have evolved, meaning more play has occurred, more potential realized, on the physical plane so there is more truth that can be received, understood and manifested. Remember, Jesus said his disciples would do greater works than he? Because they would be able to bring more of Spirit and Truth into this world than he was able.

This is why we cannot get stuck in specific doctrines, saying this is Truth, for Truth is constantly evolving or advancing here in the physical. Thus we must worship in Spirit and Truth, not in fixed doctrines and theologies.

If a group is led by an Apostle, the Apostle connects directly with Christ, meaning they embody Logos as well, and so their teachings will constantly grow and evolve, as more and more is able to come in.

It is like trying to keep up with a tornado, in following the teachings of our Apostle, they are constantly growing and growing and getting deeper and deeper.

Remember what Jesus said: The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Logos does not have a fixed beginning nor end, nor a fixed in between. It is constantly moving.

I believe without doubt that God has always communicated with His children, wherever they are, whenever their time was upon the earth. Thus, truth can be found everywhere; and the Holy Ghost will confirm and witness to us of that truth in addition to revealing new truth to our spirits. If I am beginning to understand you correctly, these are unfoldings of truth which exist within different aspects of our physical world - which can be seen with our spiritual eyes when we are able to comprehend them.

Indeed.

So true, my beloved friend.

Shalom,

jo

Blessings of Peace to you and yours, my friend.

Sheryl

[_harmony]

What the disciples experienced on the Mount of Transfiguration is available for those who are able to receive it. Which are few presently in the world.

Another relative of Nightlion's, I see.

Welcome.