Stay Strong Saints

[_gdemetz]

According to a letter written by W.W. Phelps, he stated that Joseph received a revelation on polygamy on July 17, 1831. Also, of course, Joseph had sex with some of his plural wives, but not the "spiritual" wives I was referring to.

[_gdemetz]

It is true that one of Joseph's wives told her daughter, while she was on her deathbed, that she was the daughter of Joseph Smith. However, considering that she was a "spiritual" wife of Joseph Smith, and considering that not only wives were sealed to Joseph, but children also, it is quite apparent in these circumstances that she could have very well been referring to the afterlife that she was about to depart to. This man, Joseph, has been under such vile persecution that it is amazing to me, but it does fulfill what Moroni warned him about; that his name should be had for good and evil. What is also apparent to me is that the ones who were very close to the circumstances, and the ones that by right should have been offended the most by his so called "stealing wives," were not offended, but instead defended him and stood by him during these times of persecution, for the most part. Why? The reason to me seems obvious, because they knew better what was really going on.

[_Drifting]

According to a letter written by W.W. Phelps, he stated that Joseph received a revelation on polygamy on July 17, 1831. Also, of course, Joseph had sex with some of his plural wives, but not the "spiritual" wives I was referring to.

What date was the letter written?

[_Drifting]

It is true that one of Joseph's wives told her daughter, while she was on her deathbed, that she was the daughter of Joseph Smith. However, considering that she was a "spiritual" wife of Joseph Smith, and considering that not only wives were sealed to Joseph, but children also, it is quite apparent in these circumstances that she could have very well been referring to the afterlife that she was about to depart to. This man, Joseph, has been under such vile persecution that it is amazing to me, but it does fulfill what Moroni warned him about; that his name should be had for good and evil. What is also apparent to me is that the ones who were very close to the circumstances, and the ones that by right should have been offended the most by his so called "stealing wives," were not offended, but instead defended him and stood by him during these times of persecution, for the most part. Why? The reason to me seems obvious, because they knew better what was really going on.

I'm guessing you aren't familiar with the actual commandment that Joseph was given about polygamy...

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

It would appear that polygamy (according to God at least) was for the specific purpose of 'multiplying and replenishing the earth' (in the 1800's that meant having sex). It would also seem to indicate that Joseph's habit of wedding other men's wives would fall foul of 'the virgin clause' that God slipped into that revelation.

Maybe though God was only speaking as a man...

Or are you saying Joseph deliberately disobeyed the commandment he received directly from God?

[_Yoda]

It is true that one of Joseph's wives told her daughter, while she was on her deathbed, that she was the daughter of Joseph Smith. However, considering that she was a "spiritual" wife of Joseph Smith, and considering that not only wives were sealed to Joseph, but children also, it is quite apparent in these circumstances that she could have very well been referring to the afterlife that she was about to depart to. This man, Joseph, has been under such vile persecution that it is amazing to me, but it does fulfill what Moroni warned him about; that his name should be had for good and evil. What is also apparent to me is that the ones who were very close to the circumstances, and the ones that by right should have been offended the most by his so called "stealing wives," were not offended, but instead defended him and stood by him during these times of persecution, for the most part. Why? The reason to me seems obvious, because they knew better what was really going on.

You realize that your argument is basically the same as that of the RLDS Church (now Community of Christ Church)?

I think it is apparent that Joseph Smith did, in fact, practice full "rights of husbandry" with his plural wives. It is true that there were some who may not have slept with. There were women who sealed themselves to Joseph after his death. I also believe that Joseph did not have a complete understanding of the sealing ordinance when it was first initiated. He seemed to believe that the only way for people in the Church to be saved was to have everyone be of one family and sealed to hiim.

That was later changed.

[_Themis]

Also, of course, Joseph had sex with some of his plural wives, but not the "spiritual" wives I was referring to.

What evidence do you have that Joseph viewed these marriages differently then he did his other ones. If we have no evidence for this, then it is only reasonable to view then as any other.

It is true that one of Joseph's wives told her daughter, while she was on her deathbed, that she was the daughter of Joseph Smith. However, considering that she was a "spiritual" wife of Joseph Smith, and considering that not only wives were sealed to Joseph, but children also, it is quite apparent in these circumstances that she could have very well been referring to the afterlife that she was about to depart to.

There is no reason to view sealings/marriages to women as the same as children. We don't today when a child is sealed to a parent or parents. Again this is a poor apologetic. She had more then one child I believe when she died. It is clear what she meant. This apologetic again is not reasonable, and is only created because some do not want to accept Joseph married and had sex with others mens wives, and did it without their knowledge. I can understand why this would bother many, and it should. You also keep ignoring BY and Zina.

This man, Joseph, has been under such vile persecution that it is amazing to me, but it does fulfill what Moroni warned him about; that his name should be had for good and evil.

Every successful religious founder is known for this. If you study with an open mind real history you may find that Joseph was the author of much of his own problems. That does not excuse the actions of others, but it helps to understand better what their real motivations were. Most of Joseph's problems were not directly religious in nature.

What is also apparent to me is that the ones who were very close to the circumstances, and the ones that by right should have been offended the most by his so called "stealing wives," were not offended, but instead defended him and stood by him during these times of persecution, for the most part. Why?

Actually many were. Most he married did not know. He would also choose the ones he thinks are most likely to accept what he asks, even though many rejected him. This is true of others like David Koresh, and some current polygamists. Why did so many stand by him and others. Joseph was not that different then many others who have successfully founded new religions, and sought out sexual partners. He is even unique as well like L Ron Hubbard.

[_gdemetz]

Liz and Themis, you both make very good points, I agree that Joseph did bring a lot of problems on himself for several reasons. Liz mentioned one. It appears to me from the evidence that I have examined that his understanding of this teaching at the beginning was not the same as it was later. Also, the somewhat understandable fact that he tried to keep the practice secret for so long didn't help later when it was discovered. It reminds me of the incident when Abraham told pharaoh that Sarah was his sister, only Joseph's problem was much greater. Another big problem was that he believed that since he had the keys for the afterlife, he didn't concern himself with the civil law of the land much, which the church now does, and I think that, again, this goes back to what Liz was stating. He did have "spiritual" wives in which no intimacy was involved since they were considered as sealings for the afterlife. There were also polygamous relationships in which, of course, intimacy was involved. However, I will say this in defense of Joseph. He was a kind person who was loved and respected by so many who knew him and were close to him as well as his circumstances, and I have seen no proof of where he deliberately committed an immoral act. I know that he has been condemned by many for that, but in all his actions, I believe that he followed the revelations as best as he understood them.

[_Themis]

[quote="gdemetz"It appears to me from the evidence that I have examined that his understanding of this teaching at the beginning was not the same as it was later. [/quote]

Could you provide your evidence for what you mean. I am not saying Joseph's ideas did not evolve over time just as his first vision did.

Also, the somewhat understandable fact that he tried to keep the practice secret for so long didn't help later when it was discovered.

He never admitted it publicly even though rumors were out there.

Another big problem was that he believed that since he had the keys for the afterlife, he didn't concern himself with the civil law of the land much, which the church now does, and I think that, again, this goes back to what Liz was stating.

The church's teachings on it come from Joseph. He said that he believed in sustaining the law of the land, but we see right from his youth that this is not so. We look at these things when evaluating someones claims.

He did have "spiritual" wives in which no intimacy was involved since they were considered as sealings for the afterlife. There were also polygamous relationships in which, of course, intimacy was involved.

We have asked multiple times for your evidence that Joseph had two different types of marriages in mind. I am not aware he saw any difference even though he may never have intended sexual intimacy with everyone. We also have evidence for sexual activity for at least one, and we know BY had children with Zina who was still married to her first husband.

However, I will say this in defense of Joseph. He was a kind person who was loved and respected by so many who knew him and were close to him as well as his circumstances, and I have seen no proof of where he deliberately committed an immoral act.

Everyone has good and bad in them. Certainly Joseph had many good qualities or he would never have had success in building a religion. What I have seen suggested he was kind and loyal to his friends and very cruel to those he viewed as enemies. You should read some of the things he says about those who he has a falling out with.

I know that he has been condemned by many for that, but in all his actions, I believe that he followed the revelations as best as he understood them.

I think he was a pious fraud, which is common in religion.

[_gdemetz]

Well Themis, that is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it, however, I disagree. There have been some honest historians and there have been some that were not so honest, and I believe that FAIR has been pretty much fair in their presentation and documentation concerning these matters, and I have never seen any true documented, established historical fact that proves Joseph Smith committed an awful immoral transgression which his enemies are so anxious to accuse him of. It is almost to the point that they thirst after his blood.

[_Themis]

Well Themis, that is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it, however, I disagree. There have been some honest historians and there have been some that were not so honest, and I believe that FAIR has been pretty much fair in their presentation and documentation concerning these matters, and I have never seen any true documented, established historical fact that proves Joseph Smith committed an awful immoral transgression which his enemies are so anxious to accuse him of. It is almost to the point that they thirst after his blood.

So another words you cannot provide evidence Joseph viewed marriages differently. Remember some apologists accept that Joseph did have sex even with the married ones. They would view it as ok. As to whether he was committing some immoral act depends on whether you think he really saw God. Other then sex I am not sure what other actions you are talking about. If you consider glass looking for hire an immoral act, then yes we have evidence of this from different sources.