Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_Franktalk]

What ties His Blood to wine is:

John 6:53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

and

Matthew 26:27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you,
28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
29 I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.”

Where in scripture does it say that before Jesus blessed the liquid it was wine? The closest I could find was the man that had the room for the feast was carrying water when he was found.

Also it appears that the wedding at which time Jesus turned water into wine may have been a foreshadow of the last supper. The servants at the wedding who knew the water was turned to wine said nothing. It is not a big deal but I think we all assume it was wine before He blessed it.

If you can find where it says it was wine before the blessing let me know.

[_Tobin]

Frank,

D&C 20:40 And to administer abread and wine—the bemblems of the flesh and blood of Christ—

Seems pretty clear there. That is straight from the Lord. No translation errors. No ambiguity. It's right there in black and white.

[_gdemetz]

Albion, you and some others here have missed the boat again, as usual! First of all, there were NO altar calls in the New Testament! The Mormon doctrine is the New Testament doctrine restored as I have showed you many times with non Mormon scholarly quotes! Yes, there had to be faith in Christ and repentance, but it was not inviting Christ toi merely come into ones heart! Then, there was the baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost; born of the water and Spirit just as those non Mormon references have stated!

Also, you guys have missed a very important point. Christ told Peter that upon THIS rock (not upon you Peter) I will build my church. That rock was revelation from God! God has always guided HIS PEOPLE by revelation, and it is no different now! Other religions might argue water, wine, or whatever man made doctrine will prevail with their limited intellects, and that is why there are so many man made churches! However, the LDS are led by prophets of God who lets them know what is God's opinion and will! "Surely the Lord will do NOTHING except He first reveal it to (not Albion's minister) His servants the prophets"!

[_Albion]

An altar call is merely an invitation to Christ. I think you are placing too much emphasis on the word altar rather than on the principle such as clearly demonstrated by Jesus in his ministry. More often Christian churches use the term invitation. Again, you are using a purely Mormon interpretation of exactly what the "rock" is that Jesus is talking about. I suspect Mormons are alone in their interpretation. Christianity does not interpret the passage the way Mormons do. I responded fully on this in an earlier post to Franktalk...perhaps you would like to go back and read it. Since deep down I know you won't, I'll reiterate two points I made and which I stand by. Firstly, Christ is the rock on which his church is built....he is first and foremost in all things. Secondly, it is the declaration of Peter, that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, that is a foundational belief of Christ's Church and not the process that enabled Peter to make the declaration. I agree that God did indeed reveal his will through the prophets "in the past" "at many times and in various ways but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son." Is that not clear enough that prophets, in the sense of Moses, are a thing of the past. What can they possibly say that can Trump the literal presence of "god with us" in Jesus who remains with believers in and through the Holy Spirit? I'll place my trust in Jesus alone rather than false "propehts, seers and revelators" as you apparently do.

[_madeleine]

Where in scripture does it say that before Jesus blessed the liquid it was wine? The closest I could find was the man that had the room for the feast was carrying water when he was found.

Franktalk,

Jesus says "I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.” You'd have to view this as some random statement from nowhere if you think he was drinking water before he made this statement.

Also, the feast was a Passover feast. What were/are the Jewish traditions surrounding this feast? The Four Cups of wine used in the Passover seder symbolize the four distinct redemptions promised by God to the Hebrews as told in Exodus 6:6-7. (1) "I will take you out of Egypt", (2) "I will deliver you from Egyptian slavery", (3) "I will redeem you with a demonstration of my power", and (4) "I will acquire you as a nation".

Jesus uses the third cup, and says he will not drink the fourth. Powerful message there, in those cups of wine, no?

You also have the practice of the early Christians, which always, every time, is described as using wine. Never, not once, water. Using water is an innovation that didn't come until centuries later.

Also it appears that the wedding at which time Jesus turned water into wine may have been a foreshadow of the last supper. The servants at the wedding who knew the water was turned to wine said nothing. It is not a big deal but I think we all assume it was wine before He blessed it.

If you can find where it says it was wine before the blessing let me know.

The wedding feast at Cana is the beginning of Jesus' public ministry. It foreshadows the end of His ministry. The shedding of Jesus' blood on the Cross, and also the Resurrection, as he performs this miracle on the third day of the wedding....again, a reference to redemption.

Here's a description of the last supper, from modern Hebrew Christians:

http://jewishroots.net/library/holiday- ... supper.htm

[_gdemetz]

Hello Albion?! The rock is revelation from Christ and God! How can it be Christ's church if it is not set up to receive revelations from Christ?! Remember; "Surely the Lord will do NOTHING except He first reveal it to His servants the prophets." And, since your church has no prophets, then obviously the Lord will do nothing in your church, except perhaps to try and wake it up! Is your church going into all the world and baptizing all as Christ instructed?! Are they performing the other duties that Christ instructed such as laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost?! No, it's not; it's just going out like the lost sheep that they are and giving altar calls!

[_Albion]

gdemetz, I know what Mormonism teaches as well as you do but together with the rest of Christianity I reject that premise. If you want to discuss any particular point please give the reference so we can look at the passage within the context it was given to see what it is really talking about.

[_gdemetz]

I know, Albion. You reject not only Mormonism, but all the scholarly non Mormon references I give, and not only that, you reject all the Bible quotes I give you too, by that same dumb argument that (apostate) Christendom doesn't believe that! Hello Albion! That's why a restitution of all things was necessary!!!

[_Franktalk]

Madeleine,

I believe you missed my point. At the last supper Christ may have turned the water to wine, we don't know. But we are not Christ and can not turn water to wine. So we start with what He had in the cup that He gave to the Apostles. All I am saying is there is an assumption that Christ used wine and did not change it. Although a change in the nature of the drink seems likely to me. When I meet Christ I intend to ask Him if the memory of the last supper does not come back to me. After all my spirit witnessed the events first hand.

When Moses talked of the Passover feast he talked of the lamb, bread, and bitter herbs. He did not speak of drink.

A book called the Haggadah (from the Hebrew root "to tell") that serves as the liturgy and guidebook for the seder is an amazing pedagogic instrument that developed over time. The first documented evidence of parts of the Haggadah is found in the Mishnah (edited ca. 200 CE). The arrangement of the table, the psalms, benedictions, and other recited matter of today coincide substantially with the program laid down in the Mishnah. Midrashim (commentaries) were added and most of the version we now have was completed by the end of the Talmudic period (500-600 CE). Evidence of the wide acceptance of the Haggadah was its inclusion in Rav Amram's siddur (prayerbook) in the eighth century CE.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holiday ... tory.shtml

Do we know when the oral tradition came to be? We know when it was written down.

[_madeleine]

Madeleine,

I believe you missed my point. At the last supper Christ may have turned the water to wine, we don't know. But we are not Christ and can not turn water to wine. So we start with what He had in the cup that He gave to the Apostles. All I am saying is there is an assumption that Christ used wine and did not change it. Although a change in the nature of the drink seems likely to me. When I meet Christ I intend to ask Him if the memory of the last supper does not come back to me. After all my spirit witnessed the events first hand.

When Moses talked of the Passover feast he talked of the lamb, bread, and bitter herbs. He did not speak of drink.

A book called the Haggadah (from the Hebrew root "to tell") that serves as the liturgy and guidebook for the seder is an amazing pedagogic instrument that developed over time. The first documented evidence of parts of the Haggadah is found in the Mishnah (edited ca. 200 CE). The arrangement of the table, the psalms, benedictions, and other recited matter of today coincide substantially with the program laid down in the Mishnah. Midrashim (commentaries) were added and most of the version we now have was completed by the end of the Talmudic period (500-600 CE). Evidence of the wide acceptance of the Haggadah was its inclusion in Rav Amram's siddur (prayerbook) in the eighth century CE.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holiday ... tory.shtml

Do we know when the oral tradition came to be? We know when it was written down.

Hello Franktalk,

I understood your point. I see no need to read into the narrative what you are reading into it.

As a Catholic, I am not sola scriptura. :-) But neither do I believe that every speculation under the sun is probable.

Both Jews and Catholics have Sacred Tradition, that is, a belief that what God has revealed is found in written scripture, and in the faith that is handed on. Oral tradition being a part of Tradition, but not its entirety. Liturgy is also a major part of the faith handed on. The Feast of the Passover is one such liturgy. Both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are inspired of the Holy Spirit.

Hope that helps clarify my position and why I pointed out the Sacred Traditions of the Jewish Passover feast, which Jesus, as a devout Jew, would have participated in.