Tobin wrote: For some reason, you assume Joseph Smith modus operandi suddenly switched from where he didn't understand reformed Egyptian to where he suddenly can read and understand Egyptian Hieroglyphics and you have no reason to do so.
How can you read all my posts on this subject and get what I said so horribly wrong. The evidence shows Joseph got it wrong, and made it up. If Joseph could suddenly read and understand hieroglyphics then we wouldn't have the Book of Abraham today. He wouldn't have attached text to hieroglyphs that don't translate into an Abraham story. I am bringing up the problems with the catalyst theory on why Joseph was attaching text to hieroglyphs and the facsimiles if God was not giving it to him. The catalyst theory should have just produced the Book of Abraham like the BofMoses and not been attached to the papyri in such specific ways. Why would God be so stupid to have Joseph attach text to specific parts of the facsimiles and hieroglyphs if Joseph was stupidly doing it. I just don't think Joseph or God is that stupid. You seem to think they are to protect a interpretation of your experience.
As I've said, God didn't.
Themis wrote:
Tobin wrote:It was simply not how Joseph Smith translated anything. He could only translate by the power of God and so attributing any understanding of the actual material to Joseph Smith is fatally flawed.
This does not deal with the problems here. Where did Joseph get the idea about the papyri in the first place. Where did he get the idea to attach text to specific hieroglyphs. Where did he get the idea of Abraham's signature. Where did he get the ideas and claims about the Greek document he was shown.
As I've said, God didn't give the papyri to Joseph Smith and command him to translate it and you are again mixing up and messing up conjecture by Joseph Smith with the inspired text (Book of Abraham).
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Well, as the OP highlights, this is not something I alone believe. So I don't think your point is well considered.
I would be interested in references to any who agree with your theory of not being able to translate anything.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Tobin wrote:Well, as the OP highlights, this is not something I alone believe. So I don't think your point is well considered.
I would be interested in references to any who agree with your theory.
Again, read the OP - your point isn't well considered.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote: Again, read the OP - your point isn't well considered.
One anon comment does not place you in the majority or even in a small minority.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Tobin wrote: Again, read the OP - your point isn't well considered.
One anon comment does not place you in the majority or even in a small minority.
I didn't say it did, and I didn't write the OP - merely commented and explained the position here.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
As I've said, God didn't give the papyri to Joseph Smith and command him to translate it and you are again mixing up and messing up conjecture by Joseph Smith with the inspired text (Book of Abraham).
You are still not addressing the questions I bring up about where Joseph got it all wrong. If Joseph is getting it wrong then he has to be stupid and I don't think that hypothesis works. The so called inspired text is intricately attached to the papyri. How did Joesph decide which parts of the text to attach to specific hieroglyphs and the facsimiles as well. If he didn't get inspiration from God to do this then the answer needs to be stupidity. I can't see why Joseph would not know he couldn't hope to get it right himself, and where did he get the revelation for specific parts of the facsimiles. This is much worse then stupidly attaching text to hieroglyphs. You have never tried to address these problems.
Tobin wrote:As I've said, God didn't.As I've said, God didn't give the papyri to Joseph Smith and command him to translate it and you are again mixing up and messing up conjecture by Joseph Smith with the inspired text (Book of Abraham).
You are still not addressing the questions I bring up about where Joseph got it all wrong. If Joseph is getting it wrong then he has to be stupid and I don't think that hypothesis works. The so called inspired text is intricately attached to the papyri. How did Joesph decide which parts of the text to attach to specific hieroglyphs and the facsimiles as well. If he didn't get inspiration from God to do this then the answer needs to be stupidity. I can't see why Joseph would not know he couldn't hope to get it right himself, and where did he get the revelation for specific parts of the facsimiles. This is much worse then stupidly attaching text to hieroglyphs. You have never tried to address these problems.
Tobin wrote:Because the fact is Joseph Smith was clueless about the papyri.
Read the thread, let me know if there isn't anything we haven't gone over at least twice - mmmm, k?
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Because the fact is Joseph Smith was clueless about the papyri.
Read the thread, let me know if there isn't anything we haven't gone over at least twice - mmmm, k?
That doesn't address the problems I have raised, but I don't expect you will address it either for lack of understanding what the issue is or recognition that it destroys the catalyst theory. All you want to keep the discussion to is simply stating Joseph was clueless about the papyri and leave it at that, but it does not address why he would make it up and attach specific parts of the papyri to the Book of Abraham. I suppose clueless is your way of saying stupid, but I don't think it begins to explain the problems, and I don't really think one can be that stupid.
Tobin wrote:Because the fact is Joseph Smith was clueless about the papyri.
Read the thread, let me know if there isn't anything we haven't gone over at least twice - mmmm, k?
Themis wrote:That doesn't address the problems I have raised, but I don't expect you will address it either for lack of understanding what the issue is or recognition that it destroys the catalyst theory. All you want to keep the discussion to is simply stating Joseph was clueless about the papyri and leave it at that, but it does not address why he would make it up and attach specific parts of the papyri to the Book of Abraham. I suppose clueless is your way of saying stupid, but I don't think it begins to explain the problems, and I don't really think one can be that stupid.
Oh, after many discussions with you, I can believe it.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Oh, after many discussions with you, I can believe it.
I see you can only attack others instead of dealing with this. I never expected you would, so I only bring it up to expose some of the problems with the catalyst theory. If anyone else who believes in the catalyst theory wants to try and tackle the problems I am all ears.