The Book of Mormon contridicts Mormonism

[_Kittens_and_Jesus]

What I'm getting out of this is that some people never went to seminary and don't pay attention in Gospel Doctrine classes.

"They will become gods"

"They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to His commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fullness of the perfect day shall burst upon them."

This is all taken from church's website and manuals.

These debates over what exaltation means in the LDS church is stupid. When I was a kid any 10 year old could have explained it to you. My grandparents, one of which is a temple sealer would offer the same explanation. Now these apologists and their acolytes want to muddy the waters. When I was still a member you would have been in danger of being excommunicated for expressing the thoughts I see posted here by supposed defenders of the faith.

[_seven7up]

What I'm getting out of this is that some people never went to seminary and don't pay attention in Gospel Doctrine classes.
"They will become gods"

Yes. The saints are said to be exalted to the throne with Christ. And as I said, would be, the "heavenly host" , who are "gods". In fact, I believe that God was speaking to these "gods" when he said, "Let US create man in OUR image and after OUR likeness, both male and female".

"They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to His commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fullness of the perfect day shall burst upon them."
This is all taken from church's website and manuals.

I totally agree with that statement you quoted. In fact, I provided the following understanding of the doctrine:

I believe that God has provided a way for us to become like Him, God will share everything He has with us, and while the organization isn't very clear to us, I believe that God will give us the opportunity to live the kind of life that God lives (including having spiritual children). However, God will always be our Father, Jesus will always be our savior, and "nothing will ever change the relationship that we have with them."

Please explain to me why you believe that my explanation of exaltation is not in accordance with either LDS scripture or the website or manuals.

These debates over what exaltation means in the LDS church is stupid. When I was a kid any 10 year old could have explained it to you. My grandparents, one of which is a temple sealer would offer the same explanation. Now these apologists and their acolytes want to muddy the waters. When I was still a member you would have been in danger of being excommunicated for expressing the thoughts I see posted here by supposed defenders of the faith.

Did your grandparents ever discuss with you what they believe Joseph Smith meant by "Thus the head God brought forth the gods in the grand council"? What does it mean for one God to be above or at the head of other divine beings?

Did your grandparents discuss the context of the King Follett sermon? Did you discuss with them that Joseph Smith brings in the idea that Jesus Christ is following the same path that God the Father did? This has been taught repeatedly by LDS leaders. One of the scriptures that Joseph is referencing is John 5:19:

"I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever the Father doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

Joseph explained, that (like Jesus) God the Father is an exalted man in form and appearance, "If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another ... we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did;"

Again, people often leave out "the same as Jesus Christ himself did". Did your grandparents discuss that part of the discourse with you? Did your grandparents tell you that Joseph Smith was speaking in the context of Christ's power of resurrection? Joseph also references John Chapter 5 verse 24-26, which states:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself"

Based on that scripture, Joseph Smith says this in the King Follett discourse:

"Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power--to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again."

So, Jesus was born after a real pregnancy, grew up as a real child, and grew up to be a real flesh and blood man, and in that sense, was “like us” as a spirit son of God dwelling in a mortal body and experiencing all the kinds of trials that we face in mortality (and more so). However, would your grandparents claim that Jesus was like us in every sense, including sinfulness? Did your grandparents believe that they were gods before mortality and sinless while in mortality?

Also, Joseph's discourse says:

"What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children."

If you want to assert that there are Mormons who don't understand the scriptures and the context related to those catch phrases pulled from Joseph Smith's discourse, then fine. I would agree with you, because I have seen LDS who are guilty of taking phrases out of context and misapplying them. No offense, but maybe your grandparents fall into that category, but I don't know them, and I have not spoken to them about these details. Whatever you do, don't accuse me of being an LDS heretic because I actually read the whole speech in context in order to find out what the heck Joseph Smith was talking about.

-7up

[_Bazooka]

If we can turn to our scriptures....

D&C132

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Hmmm...seems pretty clear - get married in the temple...don't kill anyone...become a God. Got it.

And as far as 7up's claim that we only inherit the throne of Christ.....

Yes. The saints are said to be exalted to the throne with Christ

......<bong>....not so:

They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20).

Doctrine is that we inherit everything that our Heavenly Father has too!
All power
All glory
All dominion
All knowledge

That's 'All' folks.....

[_seven7up]

Yes. The saints are said to be exalted to the throne with Christ

And as far as 7up's claim that we only inherit the throne of Christ.....

It is considered to be the same throne.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Rev 3:21)

God gives the inheritance to this spiritual generation and is exalted by doing so. With those exalted, there is equality among those who inherit the kingdom, because everything is shared. That is what it means to be "joint heirs" with Christ.

And as Joseph Smith explained in my previous post, God the Father has kingdom added upon kingdom.

They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20).

Doctrine is that we inherit everything that our Heavenly Father has too!

I don't see your point. Are you saying that our inheritance should include, for example, a previous universe rather than this one?

-7up

[_Bazooka]

Doctrine is that we inherit everything that our Heavenly Father has too!

I don't see your point. Are you saying that our inheritance should include, for example, a previous universe rather than this one?

-7up

My point is that Mormonism teaches we can become God.
Does the Book of Mormon support that, or contradict it?

[_seven7up]

Doctrine is that we inherit everything that our Heavenly Father has too!

I don't see your point. Are you saying that our inheritance should include, for example, a previous universe rather than this one?

My point is that Mormonism teaches we can become God.

What do you mean? That statement requires more explanation.
I cannot take the place of God the Father. It can't mean that. Plus, "God" is often understood as being more than one person. I myself cannot become many persons either.

I can become "one with God even as Christ is one with the Father". So, in that sense your statement could be considered true. I can become "like Jesus Christ, for we shall see him as he is." And if Jesus is the "exact imprint/image/expression of God the Father's person" (Heb 1:1-2), then, by logical inference, that also means that we can be like God the Father. We will "partake in the divine nature" and will be "gods" having received "eternal life" and even live the kind of life that God lives, including having spiritual children. As far as I know, we don't have much more information in the topic beyond that.

Does the Book of Mormon support that, or contradict it?

False dichotomy. The Book of Mormon hardly addresses the issue of what exaltation will be like. The Book of Mormon, among other things, focuses on the good news of Jesus Christ, how he paid for our sins, and how we can gain access to the benefits of Christ's sacrifice. It does not speak much on the details our existence in the next life.

However, the Book of Mormon does indicate that we are the same kind of being as God is. When the brother of Jared met the Lord, the divine and pre-mortal Christ explained that our physical existence is based off of our spiritual existence, and is formed in the same image and pattern as God's. This is not the concept painted by mainstream Christianity's interpretation of God, who is an eternally unchanging being in a metaphysical sense and literally everywhere at once.

-7up

[_Bazooka]

The Book of Mormon hardly addresses the issue of what exaltation will be like. The Book of Mormon, among other things, focuses on the good news of Jesus Christ, how he paid for our sins, and how we can gain access to the benefits of Christ's sacrifice. It does not speak much on the details our existence in the next life.

However, the Book of Mormon does indicate that we are the same kind of being as God is. When the brother of Jared met the Lord, the divine and pre-mortal Christ explained that our physical existence is based off of our spiritual existence, and is formed in the same image and pattern as God's. This is not the concept painted by mainstream Christianity's interpretation of God, who is an eternally unchanging being in a metaphysical sense and literally everywhere at once.

-7up

The good news of Jesus Christ?
You mean the plan which is easier to achieve if nobody hears about it until after they're dead?

[_Mittens]

http://youtu.be/NOthSZBg5WI

It would be an anomaly for the Book of Mormon ever to agree with the Mormon faith since Mormon theology was developed completely after the Book of Mormon was written

[_seven7up]

The Book of Mormon hardly addresses the issue of what exaltation will be like. The Book of Mormon, among other things, focuses on the good news of Jesus Christ, how he paid for our sins, and how we can gain access to the benefits of Christ's sacrifice. It does not speak much on the details our existence in the next life.
However, the Book of Mormon does indicate that we are the same kind of being as God is. When the brother of Jared met the Lord, the divine and pre-mortal Christ explained that our physical existence is based off of our spiritual existence, and is formed in the same image and pattern as God's. This is not the concept painted by mainstream Christianity's interpretation of God, who is an eternally unchanging being in a metaphysical sense and literally everywhere at once.

The good news of Jesus Christ?
You mean the plan which is easier to achieve if nobody hears about it until after they're dead?

Changing the subject again. And using baseless assumptions again.

-7up

[_ludwigm]

contradicts

by a nonenglish