The Evidence Thread

[_Themis]

I think there may have been a tad more resistance on that journey, don't you?

Not to mention they were not trying to get from one place to another, but trying to capture most of a continent from an enemy numbering in the hundreds of thousands. Trying to capture each town, roads, bridges, etc. Having to go house to house. How does this compare to a small group trying to avoid others in a wilderness?

[Guest]

I'm going to answer my own question: I don't think we have any idea. Examination by the only people who seem to care (the people that know 1 Nephi is true because God told them so) seems to have been limited to a relatively small stretch of coastline pretty much due east from Nahom. But here's the entire text of 1 Nephi that tells us where Lehi's party went from Nahom:

1 And it came to pass that we did again take our journey in the wilderness; and we did travel nearly eastward from that time forth. And we did travel and wade through much affliction in the wilderness; and our women did bear children in the wilderness.

...

4 And we did sojourn for the space of many years, yea, even eight years in the wilderness.

5 And we did come to the land which we called Bountiful, because of its much fruit and also wild honey; and all these things were prepared of the Lord that we might not perish. And we beheld the sea, which we called Irreantum, which, being interpreted, is many waters.

1 Nephi 17.

This raises an obvious question: what did the author mean by "nearly east?" Within a degree of east? Within 5 degrees of east? 10? 15? I think it's safe to rule out the west coast of the Arabian peninsula, but after that? We can also probably eliminate the westernmost portion of the southeast coast. But after that, depending on where one chooses to place Nahom, I think it's reasonable to say that the entire coast of the modern UAE, Oman, and most of Yemen are in play. I haven't found any any serious attempts to locate Bountiful along most of this coastline, so I have have to say we have no idea how many potential sites for Bountiful there are. The more there are, harder it is to describe the description in the Book of Mormon as a "bullseye."

[_The CCC]

Wagon trains typically were quite large compared to Lehi's group.
SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagon_train

Many were protected by the military in the journey west. Still 10% died along the route. Not so the Lehites.
SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westward_Expansion_Trails

I don't see your point.

Mine was that it only takes five months to walk 2,000 miles in primative conditions.

ETA:

The peninsula’s total area is about 1,200,000 square miles (3,100,000 square kilometres). The length, bordering the Red Sea, is approximately 1,200 miles (1,900 kilometres) and the maximum breadth, from Yemen to Oman, 1,300 miles.

We're not dealing with what the average person can do. We're dealing with a small group of men, women, and children under hostile conditions, stopping to hunt, plant crops, and resupply when possible.

[_Quasimodo]

We're not dealing with what the average person can do. We're dealing with a small group of men, women, and children under hostile conditions, stopping to hunt, plant crops, and resupply when possible.

Even at that, it seems they must have done a good seven years of dawdling. Wasn't God leading them on this journey?

Say, didn't they have a Liahona to show them witch way God wanted them to go? I guess it must have taken them eight years to figure out how it worked.

I'm eagerly awaiting your next "excuse".

[Guest]

We're not dealing with what the average person can do. We're dealing with a small group of men, women, and children under hostile conditions, stopping to hunt, plant crops, and resupply when possible.

Here's what Nephi has to say about the journey through the wilderness (after Nahom)

2 And so great were the blessings of the Lord upon us, that while we did live upon raw meat in the wilderness, our women did give plenty of suck for their children, and were strong, yea, even like unto the men; and they began to bear their journeyings without murmurings.

3 And thus we see that the commandments of God must be fulfilled. And if it so be that the children of men keep the commandments of God he doth nourish them, and strengthen them, and provide means whereby they can accomplish the thing which he has commanded them; wherefore, he did provide means for us while we did sojourn in the wilderness.

1 Nephi 17.

They ate raw meat and God provided for them. Does Nephi talk about stopping to grow crops or resupplying? Would needing to hunt to feed a small group of people prevent them from traveling .7 miles per day?

[_I have a question]

We're not dealing with what the average person can do. We're dealing with a small group of men, women, and children under hostile conditions, stopping to hunt, plant crops, and resupply when possible.

Here's what Nephi has to say about the journey through the wilderness (after Nahom)

2 And so great were the blessings of the Lord upon us, that while we did live upon raw meat in the wilderness, our women did give plenty of suck for their children, and were strong, yea, even like unto the men; and they began to bear their journeyings without murmurings.

3 And thus we see that the commandments of God must be fulfilled. And if it so be that the children of men keep the commandments of God he doth nourish them, and strengthen them, and provide means whereby they can accomplish the thing which he has commanded them; wherefore, he did provide means for us while we did sojourn in the wilderness.

They ate raw meat and God provided for them. Does Nephi talk about stopping to grow crops or resupplying? Would needing to hunt to feed a small group of people prevent them from traveling .7 miles per day?

I also note that the passage explains that they weren't weak and suffering. They were well provided for and their women and children were strong and well nourished. A strong and united group, assisted by their God, not stopping to cook their meat, not stopping to plant crops, not faced with dealing with people trying to halt their progress.

[_Res Ipsa]

I also note that the passage explains that they weren't weak and suffering. They were well provided for and their women and children were strong and well nourished. A strong and united group, assisted by their God, not stopping to cook their meat, not stopping to plant crops, not faced with dealing with people trying to halt their progress.

To be fair, 1 Nephi 17:1 says that they did "wade through much affliction," whatever the hell that means.

[_hagoth7]

Then, there are ancient records inscribed on precious metal plates, deposited in stone.

As a bit of an aside: I stumbled across a paper published in 1983 titled "Ancient Burials of Metallic Foundation Documents in Stone Boxes." I thought you may enjoy it, hagoth7.

https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/3826/gslisoccasionalpv00000i00157.pdf?sequence=1

Thank you.

Is there a reason no one is willing to publicly acknowledge that the simple matter I presented above (ancient records inscribed on precious metal plates, deposited in stone) *is* evidence?

If there is nothing but silence on a matter that straightforward, I see little reason to continue in this thread.

[_hagoth7]

..."Bi‘athtar, son of Sawad, son of Naw‘an, the Nihmite"

It is not saying the location is Nihmite. Only that the person who donated the altar is from that tribe. Again, even if the Book of Mormon was true and this site was Nahom, this inscription would not be evidence for the Book of Mormon location Nahom. It shouldn't be that hard to understand, but I also understand bias to have something can make you and CCC ignore the obvious.

Themis,

This is probably the last I'm going to say on the Nahom issue, but it would appear that we're largely talking past each other.

1) I would actually be a bit surprised if the tiny dot on the map where the altar is located was the exact same site as the place where Ishmael was buried. I do believe, however, that they are in the same *general* location. Because....

2) It's the name of the tribe/people that intrigues me more, *not* the three-letter inscription on the altar. I refer you back to the list of seven peoples/regions I offered for consideration earlier. Connect those dots if you wish.

If not, I wish you well.

This thread leads to the question for everyone here: is there *anything* that would be acceptable as evidence for the assertion that the Book of Mormon is true?

Confirmation from the Spirit of God?
Historical details?
Prophecies?

Or is this a meaningless exercise?

[_I have a question]

Thank you.

Is there a reason no one is willing to publicly acknowledge that the simple matter I presented above (ancient records inscribed on precious metal plates, deposited in stone) *is* evidence?

If there is nothing but silence on a matter that straightforward, I see little reason to continue in this thread.

But it's not evidence of the Book of Mormon is it. It's evidence of something else. It's like suggesting that finding a smooth brown stone in your back garden is evidence that Joseph used a seer stone. Or saying the Kon Tiki expedition is evidence of Jaredites. Parallels are not evidence. They are suggestions of plausibility. Unfortunately because there are far more parallels of the Book of Mormon within contemporary publications and events of Joseph's own day, such comparisons make it far more plausible to being something other than historically true.

Evidence would be a Nephite artefact, a stone box containing ancient Nephite records on precious metal plates would be evidence.