Noah's Ark questions

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_Maksutov
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Re: Noah's Ark questions

Post by _Maksutov »

EdGoble wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
We aren't talking about evolution, Ed; we're talking about the Flood. You haven't refuted JFS. While the church did not endorse his book, we have had recent GAs condemning evolution, so let's not pretend that evolution is accepted by the church. It isn't. Silence on the subject isn't wisdom, it's cowardice on the part of the institution.

Mormons have to accept Noah's ark literally. I didn't make it up, it's there, along with Adam and Eve and the Tower of Babel. Just try to get someone in General Conference to claim that the global flood didn't happen. You're coming up with your own private Mormonism, just like you have your own Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham. It might be what you need to stay aboard a la Tom Ferguson, but it's out there for everyone to see.


Nobody has to accept anything literally that doesn't have an effect on their temple recommend. Sorry. Yes, I know that that disarms some of your ammunition against Mormons in general, but not all Mormons are Chapel Mormons. Many like me are Internet-age Mormons that are actually thoughtful. We are more sophisticated than that. You aren't dealing with just naïve Chapel Mormons. Actually no, I don't need to be faithless like Furguson, but yes, I do need a Modified Mormonism, that much is true.

"The Church has no official position on the theory of evolution. Organic evolution, or changes to species’ inherited traits over time, is a matter for scientific study. Nothing has been revealed concerning evolution. Though the details of what happened on earth before Adam and Eve, including how their bodies were created, have not been revealed, our teachings regarding man’s origin are clear and come from revelation." (October 2016 New Era, https://www.LDS.org/new-era/2016/10/to- ... t?lang=eng)


Very interesting to read your confirmation of the internet vs chapel Mormon phenomenon. So chapel equals global and internet equals limited. That helps me.

Do you think the Heartland theory will appeal more to internet or chapel Mormons? The theory needs to dovetail with the rest of the creation story, correct?

"Modified" Mormonism must remain private and silent or it risks becoming schismatic. I can't imagine that the Brethren would encourage the implosion of the church. But the church doesn't distinguish between faithful and heretical dollars, thank goodness.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_EdGoble
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Re: Noah's Ark questions

Post by _EdGoble »

Maksutov wrote:
Very interesting to read your confirmation of the internet vs chapel Mormon phenomenon. So chapel equals global and internet equals limited. That helps me.

Do you think the Heartland theory will appeal more to internet or chapel Mormons? The theory needs to dovetail with the rest of the creation story, correct?


I'm not sure what you are referring to as far as Heartland theory. Are you referring to heartland theory of Book of Mormon lands, or heartland flood theory? My theory is American limited coastal flood theory, not the heartland American limited flood theory.

Clearly any limited flood theory doesn't appeal to Chapel Mormons.

No, actually there will be so much upheaval among Chapel Mormons that this will be commonplace, spoken of openly soon. Chapel Mormons will eventually need more sophistication, biting the forbidden fruit and come out of the Matrix. This is the future of Mormonism, a more agile and doctrinally sophisticated institution. Yes it is sad when some Chapel Mormons fall by the wayside who will not be able to adapt. But evolution, after all, is about survival of those who are fit, and the same principles apply with regard to those who are spiritually fit enough to make the cut.
_Maksutov
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Re: Noah's Ark questions

Post by _Maksutov »

EdGoble wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
Very interesting to read your confirmation of the internet vs chapel Mormon phenomenon. So chapel equals global and internet equals limited. That helps me.

Do you think the Heartland theory will appeal more to internet or chapel Mormons? The theory needs to dovetail with the rest of the creation story, correct?


I'm not sure what you are referring to as far as Heartland theory. Are you referring to heartland theory of Book of Mormon lands, or heartland flood theory? My theory is American limited coastal flood theory, not the heartland American limited flood theory.

Clearly any limited flood theory doesn't appeal to Chapel Mormons.

No, actually there will be so much upheaval among Chapel Mormons that this will be commonplace, spoken of openly soon. Chapel Mormons will eventually need more sophistication, biting the forbidden fruit and come out of the Matrix. This is the future of Mormonism, a more agile and doctrinally sophisticated institution. Yes it is sad when some Chapel Mormons fall by the wayside who will not be able to adapt. But evolution, after all, is about survival of those who are fit, and the same principles apply with regard to those who are spiritually fit enough to make the cut.


I was referring to the Heartland Book of Mormon theory, but it looks like I need to look into a Heartland flood variant more deeply.

Your more agile and sophisticated Mormonism is interesting to contemplate, and you may be right. But can you point to any other instances where this has happened with a religion? This is a major shift away from literalness. You may be comfortable with the Liahona but others will insist on their iron rod.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
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Re: Noah's Ark questions

Post by _SPG »

Quasimodo wrote:
SPG wrote:There are many inconsistencies with the story of Noah's Ark. It is easy to find flaws in the story and quickly dismiss it. That is the doubters way. However in the search for evidence of Noah's Ark many fascinating elements of nature have been found. There is evidence of a flood. And there are stories and several cultures about the flood. There are also stories of the last ice age in the melting of it. But there are also other spiritual considerations that the ark was some sort of symbol. I don't believe that it was a boat necessarily. Or that it had two of every animal on Earth. But in the old books there are references to the god of the world trying to kill the human race with the flood.


Floods are common. The melting of glaciers at the end of the Pleistocene probably impressed people a great deal and caused a lot of moving around at the time. "God did it" is a good explanation for anything someone doesn't understand very well. Religion is a perfect Catch 22 until science gets around to finding a better explanation.


Floods are common.

I belong to a couple of Facebook groups that focus on the Mysteries and Occult.

I find it interesting the many connections around the globe, implying some sort of connection cultural or psychic connection. For example, there are many old craving that have people believe in aliens, men obviously riding some sort of rocket ship, etc.

While this has some people believing in aliens, there is another option that I like that is the idea of prophecy. In the old days, some humans, such temple priests, made the methods of revelation a way of life.

One of things that I love about Joseph Smith and Book of Mormon is that even though much of the story doesn't make sense, if you set the timeline back 22,000 years, some of it does. Like, the days of darkness and the destructions. If Yellow Stone blew, that would be the case. If you scout around southern Utah, you can see the lava flows and they look very fresh in some areas, and old in others. But, three days of darkness definitely could have happened in that area, and Joseph Smith personally, couldn't have known about that possibility. I forget if the Bible says there days of darkness after Jesus died. I think some books might mention it.

But take Japan. They have a particularly morbid fascination with doom. But, their little island has seen more than its share. There is something in the psyche that resonants with the people there, even if they haven't experienced the doom themselves.

Point I am trying to make is that different cultures implied that God tried to kill them with a flood. Not just that a flood happened, but that God or the Devil tried to kill them, but they were saved by an angel.

There is something in psyche that continues to speak to humans about this idea. It had have just be lost, as I am so many other stories are, but this still speaks to people Whether the story is factual or not isn't as important as the idea that human brain is fascinated with the story. I am not a good scholar, but I think every race of human has a version of the story.

There is evidence of floods but maybe the real floods were 20,000 years ago and somehow still speak to us from the past. Whatever the facts are, I believe the story is important in understanding who we are. Just my opinion.
_Maksutov
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Re: Noah's Ark questions

Post by _Maksutov »

https://www.LDS.org/ensign/1998/01/the- ... e+earth%22

So is Professor Parry just a "chapel Mormon", Ed?

The Flood

Many of us have fond memories learning about Noah and his ark during our days at home and in Primary. Perhaps our parents and teachers held up a picture of Noah preaching to laughing and mocking people as he stood in front of the partially built ark, or perhaps they showed us a picture portraying the ark filled with animals standing on the deck as the great vessel rested in the water. Later, our Sunday School or seminary teachers added to our knowledge of this great man, his righteousness, his missionary work, and the revelations surrounding the building of the ark. As Latter-day Saints, we treasure this sacred, true account of one of God’s great prophets who lived so long ago.

Not everyone throughout the modern world, however, accepts the story of Noah and the Flood. Many totally disbelieve the story, seeing it as a simple myth or fiction. Typical of some modern scholars, one author recently discounted the events of the Flood by using such terms as “implausible,” “unacceptable,” and “impossible”; he stated that believers who would hope to provide geologic or other evidence regarding the historicity of the Flood “can be given no assurance that their effort, however sustained, will be successful.” 1 Another author titled his book The Noah’s Ark Nonsense, 2 revealing his disbelief that the Flood actually took place.

Still other people accept parts of the Flood story, acknowledging that there may have been a local, charismatic preacher, such as Noah, and a localized flood that covered only a specific area of the world, such as the region of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers or perhaps even the whole of Mesopotamia. Yet these people do not believe in a worldwide or global flood. Both of these groups—those who totally deny the historicity of Noah and the Flood and those who accept parts of the story—are persuaded in their disbelief by the way they interpret modern science. They rely upon geological considerations and theories that postulate it would be impossible for a flood to cover earth’s highest mountains, that the geologic evidence (primarily in the fields of stratigraphy and sedimentation) does not indicate a worldwide flood occurred any time during the earth’s existence.

There is a third group of people—those who accept the literal message of the Bible regarding Noah, the ark, and the Deluge. Latter-day Saints belong to this group. In spite of the world’s arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s prophets.

Scriptural Evidence for a Worldwide Flood

Many prophets from two different continents and different eras have identified Noah as a historical, not a mythical, character. These include Enoch (see Moses 7:42–43), Abraham (see Abr. 1:19), Amulek (see Alma 10:22), Moroni (see Ether 6:7), Matthew (see Joseph Smith—M 1:41–42), Peter (see 2 Pet. 2:5), Joseph Smith (see D&C 84:14–15; D&C 133:54), and Joseph F. Smith (see D&C 138:9, 41). The Lord Jesus Christ himself spoke to the Nephites of the “waters of Noah” (3 Ne. 22:9). Recent latter-day prophets and apostles have similarly spoken of Noah. For example, Elder Howard W. Hunter, then of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, asked, “Because modernists now declare the story of the flood is unreasonable and impossible, should we disbelieve the account of Noah and the flood as related in the Old Testament?” 3

The most voluminous scriptural witness to Noah and the Flood is recorded in the writings of Moses, who dedicated a total of 57 verses in the King James Version to the account (Gen. 6:9–8:19). It is instructive to note that some of Noah’s actual words are preserved in the book of Moses, which introduces them with “And it came to pass that Noah continued his preaching unto the people, saying”—followed by his words: “Hearken, and give heed unto my words; Believe and repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, even as our fathers, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest; and if ye do not this, the floods will come in upon you” (Moses 8:23–24). This text is significant in that it confirms that Noah, like his predecessors, understood the gospel covenant, including the baptismal ordinance and Jesus Christ’s role as Savior.

Moses may have received his information about Noah through direct revelation, or perhaps he used ancient records that were written by one of the eyewitnesses to the Flood, such as Noah himself or one of his sons. Such records, presuming they once existed, are now lost to the world. In the book of Genesis, Moses clearly states that a flood occurred, and the terminology definitely refers to a worldwide flood, as opposed to a localized flood. The Joseph Smith Translation backs up the Genesis account, modifying the wording only slightly.

Said the Lord, “I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die” (Gen. 6:17; emphasis added in this and other scriptures in this article). The phrases “all flesh … from under heaven” and “every thing that is in the earth” indicate a worldwide destruction of all creatures that lived on land. Note that the Inspired Version, translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith, changes “in the earth” to “on the earth” (JST, Gen. 8:22).

Genesis 7:19–20 [Gen. 7:19–20] states, “All the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered … ; and the mountains were covered.” These verses explicitly state that all of earth’s high mountains (“hills” should read “mountains” here; Hebrew harim) were covered by the waters. Lest one believe that the statement “under the whole heaven” is figurative and can be read or interpreted in different ways, a scriptural search through the entire Old Testament reveals that the phrase is used elsewhere only in a universal sense, as it is here; the phrase does not refer to a geographically restricted area (see Deut. 2:25; Deut. 4:19; Job 28:24; Job 37:3; Dan. 9:12). For instance, Job 28:24 also uses the phrase when referring to God’s omniscience, which is certainly not restricted to a specific geographical region on the earth.

Genesis 7:21 [Gen. 7:21] states, “All flesh died that moved upon the earth, … every creeping thing … every man.” The phrase “all flesh” refers to all land animals, creeping things, and fowls and all of humanity, with the exception of those in the ark (see Gen. 7:23). The entry every in the Oxford American Dictionary reads: “each single one, without exception.” Moses is clearly trying to let us understand that the Flood was universal.

Verse 22 [Gen. 7:22] states, “All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.” Again the term “all” expresses a sum total. The term “dry land” should be read literally here, having reference to the land masses of our planet.

Verse 23 [Gen. 7:23] states, “Every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl.” Moses’ list of those destroyed by the Flood is inclusive; only Noah “remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.”

Genesis 8:5 [Gen. 8:5] states, “In the tenth month … were the tops of the mountains seen.” After the flood, the “waters decreased” until Noah and his group were able to once again see mountaintops.

Verse 9 states, “The waters were on the face of the whole earth.” The phrase “on the face of the whole earth” refers to a worldwide flood (see Gen. 1:29; Gen. 11:4, 8, 9).

Taken altogether, these statements should convince every believer in the Bible that the great Deluge was a worldwide event, 4 not a localized flood that filled only the Mesopotamian or some other region.

Uniformitarianism

Some cite geological data to argue against the Flood. The issue for them, perhaps, revolves around the concept of uniformitarianism, 5 which has been described simply in this way: “The present is the key to the past.” Uniformitarianism, first postulated by James Hutton in 1795, 6 proposes three primary concepts: (a) there were no processes (such as geologic processes) operating in the past which are not operating now; (b) there are no processes operating now which were not operating in the past; and (c) process rates have not changed. Because modern scientists observe geologic change to be relatively slow now, many have naturally concluded that geologic processes have always been slow. Yet uniformitarianism, a premise on which much of geologic science is based, is an idea, not a fact. With our limited knowledge, it presently is a powerful paradigm for examining the earth, and given our ignorance of how the Lord has done things, it does help explain many things. The science that uses the idea has found for us such things as gas, oil, and certain types of minerals.

Yet although uniformitarianism is a powerful perspective, it is still a premise, not a fact. Uniformitarianism cannot explain all of the oddities and anomalies about the earth. Further, it neglects a God who can speak and have the dust of the earth obey, who can move mountains at will, and who can divide the Red Sea. As Latter-day Saints, we have scriptural evidence that God has intervened in the affairs of the earth and modified the landscape on numerous occasions. Among other things, he changed the earth’s environment after the Fall, he gave Enoch power to move mountains and rivers before the Deluge, he caused the Flood, and he was the cause of the catastrophic events in America at the Savior’s death.

For Latter-day Saints, the Flood is a matter of faith and belief. We believe in many events that today we cannot scientifically explain. For example, in a world where change and death are the norm, the scriptures promise immortality and eternal life. Indeed the scriptures teach that this earth will be burned (see 2 Pet. 3:10), receive a resurrection (D&C 88:26), 7 and become a celestial kingdom (D&C 88:17–18). 8 Such future events will make the incident of the Flood look like child’s play in comparison.

Further, with all of the advancements of science in recent decades, we still cannot explain how angels are able to defy gravity and descend or ascend through a building’s ceiling (see Joseph Smith—H 1:43); how rapid interplanetary travel is possible for heavenly beings (see D&C 130:6–7); how a righteous man can raise the dead using God’s power (see 1 Kgs. 17:17–23); how heavenly messengers can appear to mortals (see D&C 110:2, 11–13); or how Jesus Christ’s divine sacrifice is able to atone for our sins.

Though we cannot yet explain the physics or dynamics behind those events, we look forward to the time when the Lord will come and explain them. In the Millennium—a time of great physical change in the earth—he will “reveal all things—

“Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—

“Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven” (D&C 101:32–34).

The Tower of Babel

The account of the tower of Babel, presented in Genesis 11:1–9 [Gen. 11:1–9], is another account about which many persons in the world today disbelieve. It is an account of some of Noah’s descendants who set aside true temple worship and built a “pagan temple,” or “counterfeit temple,” 9 in the form of a great tower. Two statements hint at an attempt to build a temple: “Let us build … a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven” (4) recalls one of the purposes of temples: to serve as places where God and man can meet. “Let us make us a name” (Gen. 11:4) recalls another purpose of temples: to serve as holy places where individuals take upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ. But the rebellious people under the leadership of King Nimrod lacked real priesthood keys and the authority to build temples; they lacked the divine power to make sacred covenants in the Lord’s name. Other parallels have been made between the tower of Babel and the Lord’s temple, both in antiquity and in our times, helping Latter-day Saints, more than any other people on earth, to understand what those in Babel were vainly attempting to duplicate. 10

The tower of Babel had a momentous impact on the events of world history, occurring not too long after the Flood and immediately before the confusion of tongues. The confusion of tongues came as a curse from the Lord because of the wicked people’s attempt to build the counterfeit temple, or tower, as Moses explained (Gen. 11:5–7). Before the tower, “the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech” (Gen. 11:1), but the building of the tower brought the Lord’s decision to confuse the tongues so the people could “not understand one another’s speech” (Gen. 11:7), preventing further defilement of the Lord’s sacred ordinances. The curse, in addition, resulted in the scattering of the people “upon the face of the whole earth,” a phrase given three different times for emphasis (see Gen. 11:4, 8, 9).

The Akkadian or Babylonian word babel means “gate of God.” The word translates from Hebrew into English as “confusion” or “confound”—hence Moses’ text, “Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth” (Gen. 11:9).

For some in the modern world, the historicity of the tower of Babel story, as with the Flood, is often discounted. One modern school of thought considers the account to be nothing more than an “artful parable” and an “old tale.” 11 But Latter-day Saints accept the story as it is presented in Genesis. Further, we have the second witness of the Book of Mormon. The title page of the Book of Mormon explains that the book of Ether “is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven.” The book of Ether itself then tells of when “Jared came forth with his brother and their families, with some others and their families, from the great tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, and swore in his wrath that they should be scattered upon all the face of the earth” (Ether 1:33).

Principles and Lessons for Our Time

The stories of the tower of Babel and the Flood present a number of doctrinal principles and applications for Latter-day Saints today. With reference to the tower of Babel, we find the following interesting observations and parallels for our day:

1. Every time we hear foreign tongues (including English), we can be reminded that at one time “the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech” (Gen. 11:1). The hundreds of languages on the earth today stand as a witness that there existed long ago a tower of Babel in the land of Shinar.
Yet in spite of the confusion of tongues so long ago, the gospel of Jesus Christ is reversing the effects of Babel. In the context of a temple dedication, Elder Spencer W. Kimball taught: “someone said yesterday, there never should have been a Babel. There having been a Babel, it is in reverse now. The confusion of Babel is being overcome. The Finns and the Dutch and the British, the Germans and the French and the Hollanders, the Scandinavians, Italians, Austrians all meeting under one roof! All of them heard the voice of the prophet of the Lord. Everyone of them heard his message in his own tongue. Everyone of them heard the ordinances of the gospel, the ordinances of the temple, in his own tongue. The confusion of Babel is in reverse.” 12

2. Because of her great iniquity, ancient Babel, or Babylon, has become a long-standing scriptural symbol for “wickedness” (see D&C 133:14). Specifically, Babylon represents any people who “have strayed from mine [the Lord’s] ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;
“They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall” (D&C 1:15–16).

In antiquity, Babylon attempted to imitate Zion, attempting to replace the temple with its great tower, and Babylon’s false gods were substitutes for the Lord God. Unfortunately, Babylon has not changed in time.

3. The word “scatter[ed]” is found three times in the story of the tower (Gen. 11:4, 8–9). Nations are scattered as the result of wickedness. The opposite of scattering is gathering, and this dispensation is the era for gathering. The rebellious people who followed Nimrod were scattered from Babel, and in our dispensation the Lord’s people are to gather from Babel, or Babylon: “Gather … upon the land of Zion. … Go ye out from Babylon. … Go ye out of Babylon; gather ye out from among the nations, from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. … Go ye out from among the nations, even from Babylon, from the midst of wickedness, which is spiritual Babylon” (D&C 133:4–7, 14).
In addition to carefully studying scriptural teachings related to the tower of Babel, a study of the Flood and the last days provides valuable instruction for us:

1. Those who hearkened unto the prophet Noah’s voice and repented were baptized and received the Holy Ghost and obtained a spiritual and a “temporal salvation” (Moses 7:42). Likewise, those who follow the prophets in this dispensation, from the Prophet Joseph Smith to President Gordon B. Hinckley, and who accept the Lord Jesus Christ and repent of their sins, will be saved.
2. Noah’s contemporaries “sought his life” (Moses 8:26); “every man was lifted up in the imagination of the thoughts of his heart, being only evil continually” (Moses 8:22); they failed to hearken unto the words of their prophet (Moses 8:24); and they were guilty of riotous living, described as “eating and drinking, and marrying and giving in marriage” (Moses 8:21). The evil deeds and same type of lifestyle that belonged to people in Noah’s time are being repeated in our own day and will be present at the time of the Second Coming, as the Savior himself prophesied (see Matt. 24:37–39).
3. The disobedient of Noah’s day reveled “until the day that [Noah] entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away” (Matt. 24:38–39). Similarly, the wicked at the last days will not know of the destruction at Christ’s coming until it comes and destroys them all as did the Flood. The Savior taught: “But as it was in the days of Noah, so it shall be also at the coming of the Son of Man” (Joseph Smith—M 1:41).
4. Latter-day prophets teach that the Flood or the total immersion of the earth in water represents the earth’s required baptism. Elder John A. Widtsoe of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: “Latter-day Saints look upon the earth as a living organism, one which is gloriously filling ‘the measure of its creation.’ They look upon the flood as a baptism of the earth, symbolizing a cleansing of the impurities of the past, and the beginning of a new life. This has been repeatedly taught by the leaders of the Church. The deluge was an immersion of the earth in water.” He writes that the removal of earth’s wicked inhabitants in the Flood represents that which occurs in our own baptism for the remission of sins. 13
5. The destruction of the disobedient at Noah’s time anticipates the devastation of the wicked at the time of Christ’s coming in glory, when the earth will receive its baptism by fire. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “In the days of Noah, God destroyed the world by a flood, and He has promised to destroy it by fire in the last days.” 14 The prophet Enoch saw in vision Noah’s ark, seeing “that the Lord smiled upon it, and held it in his own hand; but upon the residue of the wicked the floods came and swallowed them up” (Moses 7:43). Likewise, the Lord has said that he will smile upon or uphold the obedient in the last days, while at the same time smiting the wicked with his judgments.
Thus, although there are many in our day who consider the accounts of the Flood and tower of Babel to be fiction, Latter-day Saints affirm their reality. We rejoice in the many truths and lessons to be learned from these two accounts, as well as from all the stories of the Old Testament.

[illustration] The Deluge, by John Martin, Courtesy of Yale University

[illustration] Inset: Months later, a dove sent forth by Noah returned with an olive leaf, “so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth” (Gen. 8:11). (Dove Bearing Olive Leaf Returns to Ark, artist unknown, courtesy of Museum of Church History and Art.)

[illustration] Following the Lord’s directions, at a set time Noah and his family and animals entered into the ark in preparation for the Flood (see Gen. 7:1–10). (The Lord Fulfilleth All His Words, by Clark Kelley Price.)

[illustration] Noah’s Preaching Scorned, by Harry Anderson

[illustrations] Above: The Book of Mormon tells us the story of the Jaredites, who were led away at the time of the tower of Babel wickedness. (Caravan with Sheep, Oxen, and Elephant, by Minerva K. Teichert, © courtesy of Museum of Art, Brigham Young University, all rights reserved.) Right: The story of the tower of Babel is of a people who set aside true temple worship and built a pagan temple. (The Tower of Babel, by Pieter Bruegel the Elder, courtesy of Kunsthistorisches Museum, Vienna.)

[photo] Photo of Hong Kong Temple by Craig Dimond

[illustration] The Second Coming, by Harry Anderson

Donald W. Parry is an assistant professor of Hebrew at Brigham Young University and a member of the international team of translators of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Maksutov
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Re: Noah's Ark questions

Post by _Maksutov »

SPG wrote:
Quasimodo wrote:
Floods are common. The melting of glaciers at the end of the Pleistocene probably impressed people a great deal and caused a lot of moving around at the time. "God did it" is a good explanation for anything someone doesn't understand very well. Religion is a perfect Catch 22 until science gets around to finding a better explanation.


Floods are common.

I belong to a couple of Facebook groups that focus on the Mysteries and Occult.

I find it interesting the many connections around the globe, implying some sort of connection cultural or psychic connection. For example, there are many old craving that have people believe in aliens, men obviously riding some sort of rocket ship, etc.

While this has some people believing in aliens, there is another option that I like that is the idea of prophecy. In the old days, some humans, such temple priests, made the methods of revelation a way of life.

One of things that I love about Joseph Smith and Book of Mormon is that even though much of the story doesn't make sense, if you set the timeline back 22,000 years, some of it does. Like, the days of darkness and the destructions. If Yellow Stone blew, that would be the case. If you scout around southern Utah, you can see the lava flows and they look very fresh in some areas, and old in others. But, three days of darkness definitely could have happened in that area, and Joseph Smith personally, couldn't have known about that possibility. I forget if the Bible says there days of darkness after Jesus died. I think some books might mention it.

But take Japan. They have a particularly morbid fascination with doom. But, their little island has seen more than its share. There is something in the psyche that resonants with the people there, even if they haven't experienced the doom themselves.

Point I am trying to make is that different cultures implied that God tried to kill them with a flood. Not just that a flood happened, but that God or the Devil tried to kill them, but they were saved by an angel.

There is something in psyche that continues to speak to humans about this idea. It had have just be lost, as I am so many other stories are, but this still speaks to people Whether the story is factual or not isn't as important as the idea that human brain is fascinated with the story. I am not a good scholar, but I think every race of human has a version of the story.

There is evidence of floods but maybe the real floods were 20,000 years ago and somehow still speak to us from the past. Whatever the facts are, I believe the story is important in understanding who we are. Just my opinion.


I think it's possible that some accounts in scriptures of various kinds could be based on some real people and events. There have been theories that, for instance, the various gods were based upon ancient kings and other actual personages. It makes a sort of sense but I don't know how much evidence there actually is for it. It's like a game of "telephone" played for centuries.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_EdGoble
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Re: Noah's Ark questions

Post by _EdGoble »

Maksutov wrote:
I was referring to the Heartland Book of Mormon theory, but it looks like I need to look into a Heartland flood variant more deeply.

Your more agile and sophisticated Mormonism is interesting to contemplate, and you may be right. But can you point to any other instances where this has happened with a religion? This is a major shift away from literalness. You may be comfortable with the Liahona but others will insist on their iron rod.


Actually, its not that much of a shift away from literalness. It just values the bare-bones basics of historicity and literalness and sort of tosses away things that are obstacles to moving forward that aren't of enough value to care about.

Heartland geography theory, as I said in the other thread, is a theory that I retracted. It of course is something that appeals more to Chapel Mormons.

I believe in the Mesoamerica theory for the Land Southward, but with a Cumorah still in New York. It is more normal for Mesoamerica adherents to toss away Cumorah in New York, as I'm sure you know. I don't think the Cumorah issue is a very important thing, but I still believe in the New York one.

Many other religions have gone through reformations, sometimes with schisms of course. Judahism, etc. Various protestant religions. They never had a very strong need to stay with a particular hierarchy, so people just start their own thing in those religions.

I don't think I see this happening on a general scale with Mormonism. Keys of the Priesthood are of too much value to Mormons. While it is true that the Denver Snuffer "Mormon Remnant" schism recently formed, they are a very small minority. But for a very long time we haven't had any apostles or other general authorities breaking off and starting their own thing. I think that people value the keys of the priesthood and the authority of the apostleship too much to break away in that way. What you will see is more people coming up with their own points of view on a number of non-essential subjects while remaining loyal to the hierarchy.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Themis
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Re: Noah's Ark questions

Post by _Themis »

EdGoble wrote:Sorry. No. I don't need to read that again. I've read it very in-depth. You are being to textual-literalist, and holding that against someone (me) that is not a textual literalist.


I used the believe in a local flood for many years, but I never thought about it much, so I would never have done all the metal gymnastics you do as a believer. You can call it textual literalness, but it does not change the fact the global nature of the story is vital. Without it the story goes from being about how mankind and all animals were saved from God's wrath to just a transportation story from the America's to the middle east with lots of magic cards to bring out to get him there. Not to mention he forgot to leave any DNA. :sad:

The church's doctrine is still global because Joseph's claimed revelations attach that to it. It also makes more sense from an LDS perspective. Noah built a ship to survive the flood and just ended up on a middle eastern Mountain as the waters receded. It also fits in with the America's being a choice land waiting for God to bring his chosen groups. Then you have three groups with a transportation story to the new choice land. Joseph even borrows another Bible story of the tower of babel. An obvious fiction to any open mind. Worse if you want to believe in a local flood because then people lived all over the earth and spoke many different languages for a very long time, taking away the towers stories explanation of why humans have so many different languages. Not to mention an Adamic language.

Interesting just how America centrist these new tales Joseph is providing. Heck even those ancient prophets from Adam to Noah lived in the America's, and Joseph just happened to be right where these great events took place. HMM really? :biggrin:
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_Maksutov
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Re: Noah's Ark questions

Post by _Maksutov »

EdGoble wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
I was referring to the Heartland Book of Mormon theory, but it looks like I need to look into a Heartland flood variant more deeply.

Your more agile and sophisticated Mormonism is interesting to contemplate, and you may be right. But can you point to any other instances where this has happened with a religion? This is a major shift away from literalness. You may be comfortable with the Liahona but others will insist on their iron rod.


Actually, its not that much of a shift away from literalness. It just values the bare-bones basics of historicity and literalness and sort of tosses away things that are obstacles to moving forward that aren't of enough value to care about.

Heartland geography theory, as I said in the other thread, is a theory that I retracted. It of course is something that appeals more to Chapel Mormons.

I believe in the Mesoamerica theory for the Land Southward, but with a Cumorah still in New York.

Many other religions have gone through reformations, sometimes with schisms of course. I don't think I see this happening on a general scale with Mormonism. You have the Denver Snuffer schism that recently formed. But for a very long time we haven't had any apostles or other general authorities breaking off and starting their own thing. I think that people value the keys of the priesthood and the authority of the apostleship too much to break away in that way. What you will see is more people coming up with their own points of view on a number of non-essential subjects while remaining loyal to the hierarchy.


There is much in Mormon culture that I admire. I honestly wish you the best in draining the bath water. You show a degree of honesty and integrity that will be needed more than ever. If there are enough of you it may work. :wink:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Themis
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Re: Noah's Ark questions

Post by _Themis »

Maksutov wrote:https://www.LDS.org/ensign/1998/01/the-flood-and-the-tower-of-babel?lang=eng&query=%22+baptism+of+the+earth%22

So is Professor Parry just a "chapel Mormon", Ed?

The Flood


It should be obvious the church was again staking out where the church sits on the literalness of the flood story. Official church magazines are one of the primary ways the leaders communicate what message they want members to hear, believe and follow.The problem is that they haven't given a new one for local flood. I do know that they won't keep your temple if you believe in a local flood. There's lots of church doctrines they wont force members to believe in order to be a member in good standing.
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