Native American use of Sacred Metal Tablets

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
Post Reply
_Lemmie
_Emeritus
Posts: 10590
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:25 pm

Re: Native American use of Sacred Metal Tablets

Post by _Lemmie »

bomgeo wrote:Haplo group x is not in central east asia and Siberia. The only controversy is how did middle east dna arrive in Native Americans before Columbus.

Already addressed on page 2 of this thread, David. Did you read the research people presented?
Because subhaplogroup X2a is not found in the Middle East and is not particularly closely related to the forms of haplogroup X that are found in that region, the haplogroup X data do not provide any evidence for a close biological relationship between Hopewell and Middle Eastern populations or any support for a direct migration from the Middle East to the Americas in pre-Columbian times.
_Maksutov
_Emeritus
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: Native American use of Sacred Metal Tablets

Post by _Maksutov »

EdGoble wrote:
Maksutov wrote:I suppose you would have to be a different person. :wink:

Your response shows me that you value loyalty and obedience above integrity. That is very disappointing.


Let's go down this road for a bit. That's pretty interesting charge you are making there. The fact that I talk about these things openly says a lot about my authenticity. You may think that somehow my loyalty and obedience is detrimental to my overall standing of integrity in the logical realm.

However there are other types of integrity. Let's talk about authenticity of heart in the purpose one is engaged in, and the integrity of keeping promises, and integrity of fulfilling duties, not just some overblown notion of integrity the way you see it, and that you think that it is dishonest to not conclude what you have concluded. Actually, keeping covenants made in the temple, and not divulging what one ought not is considered a type of integrity. Keeping one's word when one makes covenants that one will keep promises made to the fathers to do their temple work is a type of integrity.

What is the weightier matter here? That is always the question.

Do I hold to an extreme version of integrity as you see it that would make me authentic, or do I keep my temple covenants and does that make me truly authentic? Do I keep the promises made to my fathers by doing their temple work and that makes me authentic, or do I leave the Church because prophets make mistakes, and I ought to make a stand that would result in my breaking of covenants? What is it that truly makes me authentic? Well, in the ancient world, it was the keeping of promises and oaths that was the type of integrity that they held to.

The choice of what type of integrity is of more weight is clear in these matters.


You will always turn to your tribal authority. But that limits you to their universe. Unfortunately, you are interested in the wider universe not based on a 19th century fabrication. Those things are deeply incompatible and so you are often engaged in intellectual contraptions to dispel the cognitive dissonance: transhumanist Mormonism, vacillating Book of Mormon site theories, esoteric Book of Abraham codes and so on.

You will dwell in a tiny universe, Ed. Welcome to it.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_bomgeography
_Emeritus
Posts: 646
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:48 am

Re: Native American use of Sacred Metal Tablets

Post by _bomgeography »

Here is some clarification and the entire quote in full

“We surveyed our Old World haplogroup X mtDNAs for the five
diagnostic X2a mutations [A200G and G16213A in the control region
and A8913G, A12397G, and T14502C in the coding region] and found a
match only for the transition at np 12397 [nucleotide position A12397G]
in a single X2* sequence from Iran.

X1 T5302C, A14587G, T15654C, (C16104T), T16278C!!
X1'2'3 A153G
X1'3 T146C!
X1a A6359G, C7533T, C8140T
X1c G7337A, T9615C
X2 T195C!, G1719A
X2a A200G, A8913G, T14502C, G16213A
X2a'j A12397G
X2a1 G143A, A225G!, T3552C, T16093C

https://www.familytreedna.com/mtDNA-Hap ... tions.aspx

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_X_mtDNA.shtml
X2
◦X2a'j
_◦X2a: found among Native North Americans
__◦X2a1
___◦X2a1a: found among the Sioux and Tanoan speakers
____◦X2a1a1
___◦X2a1b: found among the Ojibwe people
____◦X2a1b1
_____◦X2a1b1a
___◦X2a1c: found among the Ojibwe people
_◦X2a2: found in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland
◦X2j: found in North Africa
_tapirrider
_Emeritus
Posts: 893
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:10 am

Re: Native American use of Sacred Metal Tablets

Post by _tapirrider »

David McKane, you said that haplogroup x2a is found in Iran. I see that you are online right now. Will you admit that you were mistaken in what you tried to tell me?


Edited to challenge David McKane to face up to his error:

David, you have had plenty of time to respond to my challenge of your erroneously claim that haplogroup x2a is found in Iran (it is not) and rather than face up to your error you have chosen to run away, avoid me and ignore me. Making such a stupid mistake and then not even correcting yourself or facing up to it is just about what I have come to expect from you and all of your nonsense.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_Lemmie
_Emeritus
Posts: 10590
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:25 pm

Re: Native American use of Sacred Metal Tablets

Post by _Lemmie »

bomgeography wrote:Here is some clarification and the entire quote in full

“We surveyed our Old World haplogroup X mtDNAs for the five
diagnostic X2a mutations [A200G and G16213A in the control region
and A8913G, A12397G, and T14502C in the coding region] and found a
match only for the transition at np 12397 [nucleotide position A12397G]
in a single X2* sequence from Iran.

X1 T5302C, A14587G, T15654C, (C16104T), T16278C!!
X1'2'3 A153G
X1'3 T146C!
X1a A6359G, C7533T, C8140T
X1c G7337A, T9615C
X2 T195C!, G1719A
X2a A200G, A8913G, T14502C, G16213A
X2a'j A12397G
X2a1 G143A, A225G!, T3552C, T16093C

https://www.familytreedna.com/mtDNA-Hap ... tions.aspx

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_X_mtDNA.shtml
X2
◦X2a'j
_◦X2a: found among Native North Americans
__◦X2a1
___◦X2a1a: found among the Sioux and Tanoan speakers
____◦X2a1a1
___◦X2a1b: found among the Ojibwe people
____◦X2a1b1
_____◦X2a1b1a
___◦X2a1c: found among the Ojibwe people
_◦X2a2: found in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland
◦X2j: found in North Africa

First of all, if you are going to present your research and expect to be taken seriously, you need to be accurate in your quoting and attribution. The first paragraph you quote is NOT from EITHER of the links you gave, it is from this article:

Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA Haplogroup X by Maere Reidla, et al., (2003)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497/

Second, from the article I linked above, you cherry picked a couple of sentences. Did you read the last two sentences in that very same paragraph from which you took them?
Yet, the nonsynonymous substitution at np 12397 converting threonine to alanine cannot be regarded a conservative marker, as it has also been observed in two different phylogenetic contexts.... Therefore, the scenario that the threonine to alanine change in the haplogroup X background is indeed due to recurrence appears most plausible.

The first sentence of the next paragraph shows that the authors have concluded exactly the opposite of what you have concluded:
These findings leave unanswered the question of the geographic source of Native American X2a in the Old World,

Not only does your own source again not agree with your conclusions, but the following article published in 2015 has been presented to you numerous times for further explanation.
Does Mitochondrial Haplogroup X Indicate Ancient Trans-Atlantic Migration to the Americas? A Critical Re-Evaluation, Jennifer A. Raff & Deborah A. Bolnick (2015)
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1 ... ccess=true


Did you read this article? It's hard to imagine you have, the way you continue to insist on specific invalid and scientifically unsupportable conclusions that are thoroughly refuted within its pages.

Here's the part most pertinent to your misunderstanding regarding S2a'j:
The geographic distribution of X2a’j haplotypes —especially those with some of the defining mutations for X2a (indicating that they belong to the lineage that led to X2a) — would be informative to this ques-tion, but no contemporary or ancient individuals belonging to these lineages have been identified, with the possible exception of one individual from Iran with the X2a’j defining transition at mitochondrial nucleotide position 12397. However, because this tran-sition has been observed in other haplogroups and is known to occur recurrently, it is unclear if this Iranian individual belongs to the X2a’j lineage or not (Reidla et al. 2003). X2a’s sister clade, X2j, is also extremely rare, being found in just a few contem-porary individuals from Iran and Egypt (Fernandes et al. 2012). It is possible that the common ancestor of X2a and X2j originated there, but without identify-ing more individuals bearing X2j or X2a’j lineages, any inferences about the geographic origins of X2a’j or X2a are very tenuous.

Thus, at this time, there is simply no evidence that X2a evolved in the Near East, Europe, or anywhere in West Eurasia….

Did you notice that in making her case, she used THE SAME SOURCE YOU HAVE BEEN USING?? (Reidl, 2003) Only she used the data correctly, instead of picking out isolated sentences and ignoring the overall research.

eta: I notice you started yet another thread where you are continuing to post your invalid conclusions about DNA, to what end I have no idea.
_tapirrider
_Emeritus
Posts: 893
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:10 am

Re: Native American use of Sacred Metal Tablets

Post by _tapirrider »

Lemmie wrote:I notice you started yet another thread where you are continuing to post your invalid conclusions about DNA, to what end I have no idea.


David McKane is being dishonest. He won't even admit the mistake he made when he told me that haplogroup x2a is found in Iran.

The LDS church does not support his claims.

"In short, DNA studies cannot be used decisively to either affirm or reject the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon."
https://www.LDS.org/topics/book-of-morm ... s?lang=eng

The new thread he started carries a certain irony because of the topic of a serpent. When I first began looking at claims of evidence by LDS members, I was LDS. In all cases I found the same kind of behavior that David is displaying, i.e., the claims were not supportable with credible academic sources, those making the claims were distorting and even misquoting credible sources and in some cases even outright making false statements. So it is with David. As an LDS member back in those earlier years, I was looking for any kind of nourishment so-to-speak, something to help feed a faltering testimony. But all I found was distortions, unsupportable claims and dishonesty.

David's latest post reminded me of Luke 11:11 "If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?" David gave us a fiery serpent instead of something that could actually help. He does far more harm to LDS members who simply want truth than he will ever understand.
_Lemmie
_Emeritus
Posts: 10590
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:25 pm

Re: Native American use of Sacred Metal Tablets

Post by _Lemmie »

The OP posts identical topics, under poster name ripliancum, on reddit (that name and association with bomgeo has already been mentioned here). Apparently, his posts are as irritating there as they are here:
r/exmormon reddit mod wrote:I hate to be the one that breaks it to you, but your account karma is so low, the automoderator bot automatically flags every single post and comment you make and makes the mod team verify and approve it manually. This is a function that helps moderators pre-screen a lot of bad content.

I personally am tired of approving your posts and I won't be doing it anymore. I don't have any personal grudge against you, but I am considering banning your account from /r/exmormon.

Not that you are disruptive or mean, but your posts have proven to be so off-topic from EX-mormonism, that you literally have become a burden to maintain. The subreddit itself has shown that your posts are NOT what it has deemed topical or relevant to subreddit interests, and it has manifested this un-desire by not sustaining your posts.

What I'm trying to say is nobody wants to buy what you're selling, so maybe you should try /r/latterdaysaints or /r/Mormon and save us, and yourself, a minor headache.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... n/d9cb05d/
_Maksutov
_Emeritus
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: Native American use of Sacred Metal Tablets

Post by _Maksutov »

Lemmie wrote:The OP posts identical topics, under poster name ripliancum, on reddit (that name and association with bomgeo has already been mentioned here). Apparently, his posts are as irritating there as they are here:
r/exmormon reddit mod wrote:I hate to be the one that breaks it to you, but your account karma is so low, the automoderator bot automatically flags every single post and comment you make and makes the mod team verify and approve it manually. This is a function that helps moderators pre-screen a lot of bad content.

I personally am tired of approving your posts and I won't be doing it anymore. I don't have any personal grudge against you, but I am considering banning your account from /r/exmormon.

Not that you are disruptive or mean, but your posts have proven to be so off-topic from EX-mormonism, that you literally have become a burden to maintain. The subreddit itself has shown that your posts are NOT what it has deemed topical or relevant to subreddit interests, and it has manifested this un-desire by not sustaining your posts.

What I'm trying to say is nobody wants to buy what you're selling, so maybe you should try /r/latterdaysaints or /r/Mormon and save us, and yourself, a minor headache.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... n/d9cb05d/


Fake history trolls. Book of Mormon defenders, holocaust deniers. ancient alien theorists, the aggressively ignorant internetizens never rest. :lol: I suspect they have to conjure up alternative authority systems and realities to distract from their own failures in the real world. :wink:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_bomgeography
_Emeritus
Posts: 646
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:48 am

Re: Native American use of Sacred Metal Tablets

Post by _bomgeography »

tapirrider wrote:David McKane, you said that haplogroup x2a is found in Iran. I see that you are online right now. Will you admit that you were mistaken in what you tried to tell me?


Edited to challenge David McKane to face up to his error:

David, you have had plenty of time to respond to my challenge of your erroneously claim that haplogroup x2a is found in Iran (it is not) and rather than face up to your error you have chosen to run away, avoid me and ignore me. Making such a stupid mistake and then not even correcting yourself or facing up to it is just about what I have come to expect from you and all of your nonsense.

X2aj outside of North America found in Iran is the closest genetic link to Native American Haplo group x2a.
_bomgeography
_Emeritus
Posts: 646
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:48 am

Re: Native American use of Sacred Metal Tablets

Post by _bomgeography »

tapirrider wrote:David McKane, you said that haplogroup x2a is found in Iran. I see that you are online right now. Will you admit that you were mistaken in what you tried to tell me?


Edited to challenge David McKane to face up to his error:

David, you have had plenty of time to respond to my challenge of your erroneously claim that haplogroup x2a is found in Iran (it is not) and rather than face up to your error you have chosen to run away, avoid me and ignore me. Making such a stupid mistake and then not even correcting yourself or facing up to it is just about what I have come to expect from you and all of your nonsense.

X2aj outside of North America found in Iran is the closest genetic link to Native American Haplo group x2a.
Post Reply