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_Ezias
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Post by _Ezias »

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_Ezias
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Post by _Ezias »

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_emilysmith
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Re: My Heart On A Plate……Enjoy!

Post by _emilysmith »

You should know that you are making judgments about my life that you know nothing about. After reading Jung, Aldous Huxley, Castaneda, Strassman, and others, I, of course, have felt compelled to experiment with hallucinogenic substances. The floor I live on consists of people studying chemical engineering, neurobiology, botany and a number of other disciplines where value is found in this sort of experimentation.

Mormonism is definitely not a cult. By your reasoning, Christianity, in general, is a cult since much of it is derived from the mystery cults. Cult followers suspend reason under the guidance of a charismatic leader. All religions stem from cults, so your idea of what a cult consists of is inherently flawed. You are trying to villainize the entire Mormon religion when it is only a handful of people who are the villains.

I don't know what mind control techniques you refer to. Certainly, there have been church authorities who have studied sociology, education, and organizational psychology, but their methods are no different than the practices of large corporations and most secular governments. I will be the first to admit that they intentionally employ techniques derived from empirical inquiry to guide their population, but you should realize that most advertising agencies are much more diabolical in their attempts. Fox News is a prime example of telling bold faced lies, but uses emotional issues to sway the opinions of large groups of people.

The Catholic Church has been employing these strategies for almost two thousand years, now. None of these groups are victims of cognitive dissonance, they are intentionally controlling information at the top in order to control how people view reality.

It is impossible to be a TBM and not experience a significant amount of cognitive dissonance.


It is impossible to be human without experiencing a significant amount of cognitive dissonance. If you feel the need to debate anything, then it is strong in you at this very moment. If you feel you must defend something or attack something, then you are out of equilibrium. This constant push and pull is necessary for people to learn and to feel. This is why it is hypocritical of anyone to point out cognitive dissonance to someone they disagree with. You are both experiencing it if you are debating.

As I said, there is more to it than cognitive dissonance. Building your reality involves a lifetime of learning. Essentially, every new piece of information is placed in juxtaposition with all of the old information. If you are going to learn a new way of looking at reality, everything you every learned is going to have to adjust to that new view. Considering the fact that we learn and process information through material structures and changes to those structures, there has to be changes to our biology to elicit a change in how we view reality. The operable term is neural plasticity. Our neural pathways change and reinforce (or weaken) according to how we associate everything we encounter with everything else we have ever encountered. In these terms, you can understand why drugs are so much more effective in changing someone's view of reality.

If you understood how neural networks operate, you could understand why ESP is impossible. A neuron does not communicate with anything outside of whatever it can share electrochemical signals with. Many tests have been done to test ESP, and nothing has been successful. Both the USSR and the US have invested massive amounts of resources in the hope of a functional "psy-ops" program and, not surprisingly, nothing has ever panned out.

I am careful to judge reality on constantly changing mathematical theories however they are fascinating to study.


Einstein's cosmological constant has been proven. Newtonian physics only works up to a certain scale, when relativity takes over. When working on an even greater scale, the effects of the cosmological constant become apparent. In the end, we are still talking about physics, not metaphysics. As a matter of fact, no one can demonstrate anything outside of physics. Physics does a great job of explaining what initially to appear to be phenomena.

Your adherence to the idea that ESP is real, despite the fact that you can't even provide a conceptually coherent theory as to how it might work still leaves you and Gof without a leg to stand on. Transpersonal psychology is based on the same flaws that Jung was basing his assumptions on and doesn't take into account some very common aspects of human behavior, like violence or even "nirvana." This is a huge problem since it falls between materialism and spiritualism without satisfying either one. This is why Gof is a waste of time.

We do have a general idea of what consciousness is; far more so than in Gof's hay day. Self awareness evolved from our ability to assess he thoughts and behavior of other people and is merely turned inwards. When it comes to unconscious processes, we are even less aware of what is going on in our own minds than that of other people. We are able to view these processes in functional brain scans now, like magnetic resonance and photon emission topography. Science can better explain why you believe in ESP than it can its existence. Again, you, Gof, and everyone else cannot even provide a conceptually coherent explanation of how the "metaphysical" can interact with the physical. I believe that some of your belief is due to the fact that you don't understand basic chemistry.

On the smallest scale of biological interactions, there is merely an exchange of valence electrons. That is it. It doesn't get any smaller than that. Chemical interactions are well understood, so, no matter what you make up, it isn't going to alter the constant laws of nature. It is going to be proved wrong unless you can show how it gets around high school chemistry... which you will never be able to show. Chemistry and physics are consistent... constant laws.

I simply disagree. We are more than merely mechanical machines made up of physical molecules. We are this but my view is that we are also beings of indestructible energy, that somehow interacts with these atoms that make up our brains and bodies. This energetic dimension or state of existence also has it's own form of communication that is not limited to time and space like most physical communication. It has more to do with experiencing than "seeing" or sensing with what we are familiar with, with our normal 5 senses. Spirits communicate in a way that is different than what we are used to with sight and sound. They communicate with emotion and pure thought, similar to dreams or hallucinations. That is my understanding anyway, not that I am an expert


Wrong. Electrochemical reactions. Fact.

You are simply telling us how you feel about it, but you aren't providing us with any conceptually coherent model of how it works. You speak of atoms and indestructible energy, but you have proved that you don't understand how it all works together to create perception, self awareness, or ESP.

You claim that knowledge comes from somewhere else, but you are wrong. Sure, religions stem from religious experiences, psychedelic or otherwise, but empathy has a biological basis that even dogs and monkeys can understand. Einstein said it best...

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeeded be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."


No psychedelics necessary, though one can easily see this idea when their temporal lobe and parietal lobe are quieted while under the effect of LDS, DMT, MDMA, mescaline sulfate, psilocybin, etc.

Cannabis attaches to anandamide receptors in the hypothalamus and does not produce the same effects as the other, aforementioned hallucinogens. Salvia is an alkaloid and it, too, does not provide anything close. Marijuana will never be able to produce the religious experience that the serotonin receptor bound drugs will. Salvia just makes you feel like you are sinking into the ground while making you laugh and see patterns or shadows. Neither are a religious experience of the order that a high dose DMT can produce.

What it really comes down to when you talk to the scientists it that we as humans know jack squat.


My next door neighbor, currently doing research at the Helen Wills institute, respectfully disagrees with you. We understand the evolutionary basis for self awareness, the chemical processes in which psychedelics produce altered perception, and the parts of the brain that are effected by these interactions. We understand how someone can lose their sense of time and space when the temporal lobe is inhibited, a sense of interconnectedness when their sense of self is inhibited, and a feeling of well being when their amygdala is inhibited.

We understand that, while people preach a set of rules and practices, the reality is that religion and beliefs are not overcoming the basic principles of human nature. In essence, they are all following their hearts... along with the socialization and syntax that has been programmed into them. Per capita, more religious people are in jail in the US than non-religious. Why? Because, despite their indoctrination they are human, just like you and me. They lie and love and everything in between, despite what anyone believes is right or wrong. There is no "mystical" manipulation necessary. Human nature Trump's all ideologies. Fear and greed are much more easily used to manipulate mass opinion than any mass desire for spiritual enlightenment.

All I can do is talk about what the view is like from my mountaintop. If you don't see the same things from yours then that does not mean what I am seeing from mine is not there. All we have is our perception when it comes down to it.


But you are wrong. All primitive man had was perception. Modern methods of observation are far superior to human senses, which are limited by our own biology. What people perceive is not always true. In fact, what people perceive is, at best, an approximation of reality according to their own limited concept of it. We do better to rely on modern methods of observation in order to draw conclusions. When faced with a lack of information or, in your case, a lack of a functional theory that correlates with anything that has been confirmed about reality, it is best to suspend judgment and search for real answers rather than jump to wild, unsubstantiated conclusions.

If you do, then you lump yourself in with the "religionists" whether you claim absolute truth or merely an enlightened point of view. What can be explained directly conflicts with your claims.

Denying ESP to me is as silly as denying that I can read this.


And it is just as silly to deny the LDS of their Holy Ghost, none of which are real.

A scientific methodology that shows statistically significant evidence for ESP has not been documented. The lack of a viable theory of the mechanism behind ESP is also frequently cited as a source of skepticism. Historical cases in which flaws have been discovered in the experimental design of parapsychological studies, and the occasional cases of fraud marred the field


...all things I have been saying all along. You lack evidence and a mechanism. You feel it is true just as everyone else of every other religion in the world feel their beliefs are true. You face the famous "Problem of Inconsistent Revelation."

The only knowledge *your* ESP has been able to yield is a sense of inner peace and interconnectedness, of which the biology of is well understood. If you want to continue to deny that my point of view has validity, then maybe you should consider yourself in the grips of a "significant amount of cognitive dissonance."
_Ezias
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_Ezias
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Post by _Ezias »

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_emilysmith
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Re: My Heart On A Plate……Enjoy!

Post by _emilysmith »

You are wrong about ESP.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/93028.php

The problem is you don't understand enough about how the brain works to make this kind of assumption. A neural network operates through electrochemical reactions of which the smallest unit of importance is a valence electron. Valence electrons operate under well understood laws... better known as chemistry.

The mechanisms of communication within the human body are well understood, also, and there is nothing to indicate that these internal mechanisms interact with the outside world... if anything the evidence is to the contrary. Signal transduction is well understood. This means the mechanisms of converting sound, light, pressure, heat, etc. into electrochemical signals are understood even to the point that artificial limbs are being made to communicate directly with the human body.

Perhaps, one day, we can use wireless technology to interact with our biology, but that is the closest we will come to ESP.

Consciousness evolved out of the ability to to predict the thoughts and behavior of other individuals. Self awareness is the result of this ability turned inward. This is why individuals never have an objective view of themselves. They all believe they are smarter and right more than they really are. The most classic example is the fact that nearly everyone considers themselves a good driver. As it turns out, there are relatively few good drivers.

The existence of ESP ability in humans would not be consistent with anything we know about nature; either from the standpoint of physics or human physiology. Accurate data collection, elimination of experimenter bias, adequate randomization, proper controls and correct statistical analysis are critical in any study involving ESP. The major ESP studies that claim positive results have never met these minimal criteria.

The existence of ESP has not been demonstrated in either everyday life or the laboratory. Further, the claims for ESP run counter to well- established, well-tested laws of nature. To be consistent with the rules by which reality is regulated, ESP would require elaborate, highly specialized organs for sending and receiving ESP radiation -- organs that are not evident. The ESP radiation should be detectable directly and capable of study by sensitive instruments. Such instruments do not exist because such radiation does not exist in any recognizable form. The more closely ESP has been studied in the laboratory, the smaller the effects become. ESP, if it does exist, is plainly very weak. It is becoming more difficult for its proponents to distinguish between non- existence, and an effect that is so vanishingly small that it could have no practical consequences.



As far as the church making a concerted effort to hide the truth, you need to look only as far as the "Correlation Committee." Presidents need not be involved... they just need to be figureheads. Whoever controls the information controls the church. Who do you think is hiding all of the contrary evidence away and making Sunday School lessons that, basically, cover up the controversy.

This is exactly what the Catholic Church has done. The control of information is the control of opinion. If there were people at the top who did not think the information needed to be controlled, then there wouldn't be such a concerted effort to cover it up. Why would someone want to buy the Salamander Letters? What were they going to do with them?

I can see why a materialist would think he is a waste of time, since he doesn't automatically say that we are in a Godless universe with annihilation as the only thing to look forward to.


You have more in common with the Mormons every time you speak. Basically, you are generalizing and your view in no way represents the reality of most materialists. Albert Einstein said it much better than anyone...

"Life is the privilege to perceive beauty and truth in its purest form."

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."


You see, there is more to the universe than religion or your ESP has ever come close to explaining. Life is more intricate and more precious than anything presented in any antiquated religious text. Materialism may not have all of the answers, but most of the answers it has can be backed up with empirical evidence.

What you have isn't even a theory. You have no evidence and you possess no conceptually coherent idea of how ESP even works. You use what people don't know and insert your own unsubstantiated ideas into shrinking gaps of knowledge. You too, have a God of the Gaps.

How are you not in the throes of cognitive dissonance?

The music of Layne Staley, Henry Rollins, or Tool aren't really relevant. The Yin and Yang aren't really relevant. People adopt similar symbols because of culture and a similar ability to process information which is due to biology. For your many pages of words, you haven't really posited anything substantial.

Your definition of cult changes to suit your conclusions about the Mormon church. Your concept of cognitive dissonance seems flawed since you can't accept that it applies to you. You are guilty of what you accuse the Mormons of. I understand, really. You feel very strongly about something, and so your beliefs reflect that emotion. They do not, however, reflect reality.

There is a reason Aldous Huxley and others recommend the use of psychedelic drugs be limited to intellectuals. Most people have trouble handling the situations on a psychological level. The rules from a lifetime of socialization break down, and that can be terrifying for people who feel those rules are derived from strongly held beliefs. It is very difficult for people to make sense of their psychedelic experiences because they are, basically, forced potent religious experiences. One does not work up to it in the same way they would a normal religious experience, where they already have a context.

Obviously, your belief in ESP is the result of an attempt to provide context for your forced religious experiences. The material evidence provides a much more complex and, I daresay, interesting interpretation. I recommend you give it a fair shake. I promise that you will learn something.
_Ezias
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_Ezias
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_emilysmith
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Re: My Heart On A Plate……Enjoy!

Post by _emilysmith »

Ok, then explain to us how ESP is supposed to work?
_Redefined
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Re: My Heart On A Plate……Enjoy!

Post by _Redefined »

I can understand both sides of the arguement. I think that biological factors can explain supernatural perceptions. For instance the other day on Discovery Health (or TLC), they had a program about a schizophrenic (sp?) little girl. She was very imaginitive as a small child, and as she got older she started seeing "invisible friends" that would come in the form of numbers or cats. There is obviously a brain function that is not wired right that is causing all of this for her. I'm not calling everyone that "sees" schizo, I'm just saying that one can't say that it isn't mis-wired brain circuitry that is causing such phenomenons.

However, with the empathetic abilities that you explain you have Ezias, I do believe that there are people that are more intune with their senses to percieve this. I think it is an ability that everyone is able to have. There are, however, so many different factors that one cannot scientifically study this, such as outward appearance or behavior may cause another person to "know" how that person is feeling. Like you said, it is harder to read the people that are "stable" in their emotions.
"Sometimes i feel so isolated, i wanna die."-Rock Mafia--The Big Bang
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