Science 4,586,384,421, God 0

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
Post Reply
_mikwut
_Emeritus
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:20 am

Re: Science 4,586,384,421, God 0

Post by _mikwut »

Hello Roger,

Wow, it's amazing to see you presenting cogent arguments I can actually agree with for a change!


What's even odder is Spalding Rigdon is easier to get than what I am arguing here. ;)

Nevertheless, this whole evolution thing has made me uneasy over the last couple years or so.


It certainly raises issues that thoughtful theists need to ponder.

To my way of thinking macro-evolution from a single celled ancestor is incompatible with the Christian concept of "God" which is what Buffalo seems to be arguing.


I would need this concept fleshed out, I am utilizing the concept of God that has had tradition since the church fathers, through Augustine through Aquinas and is represented today from many traditions including Newman, Barth, Tillich, Pannenberg, even the last Pope and I think the current one.

Macro-evolution is a clear remaining idea from Creationism lore (I would recommend Ronald L. Numbers book the Creationists) If one doesn't accept "macroevolution" I see no reason to have intellectual agreement with any of it. The evidence for macro-evolution of species and for humans is remarkable.

It seems to me that you are scoring some points but doing so while capitalizing on the idea that God is a mystery from the start.


Not capitalizing, making sure context is kept. A completely fulfilling concept of God without some mystery is without meaning to me, we are discussing a transcendent being for heavens sakes. Let us also understand any opposing paradigm is not without mystery in this area. The universe from scientific perspectives has been articulated recently as a hologram, part of a multiverse and/or multi/dimensional strata, even a simulation possibility by Nick Bostrom among others. All with compelling evidence, math and conclusions. Quite frankly, the age old philosophical debate about realism and idealism is still being fought the book Biocentrism by Lanza and Berman a good example of this. I don't think a Christian is compelled to accept or reject any of the many viable possibilities. Mystery is not something anyone is without presently. I certainly don't hesitate to state that it is part of my view or that it weakens it.

--as in whatever opinion critics had previously formulated about the biblical God that is incompatible with evolution, is, obviously, wrong.


I suppose it all matters on perspective. To me science adds and helps us in conceptualizing God. It can narrow proper and rational conceptualizations. If one begins with what they believe is a rigid conceptualization and it seems to conflict with science I understand the angst - I just didn't over conceptualize like they did. I can understand a conservative right wing evangelical having conceptual difficulties, or a Mormon as I was, but that group(s) is in the minority presently and historically among Christians in general. The literalistic just have a loud voice in america presently.

But, I am still confused, I would find it odd for the most rigid of right wing evangelicals to say that evolution conflicts with their idea that God floated down from the clouds and tinkered with bacteria cells, or dropped Adam off a potter's wheel. I think even the most unsophisticated are more sophisticated than that. Second, it seems literal interpretations of Adam and Eve are what are more conflicting than conceptions of God. This seems to me what John Haught has called a reading problem. His analogy of Moby Dick I think is apt. I read Moby Dick as a teenager and didn't take much from it but a story about a whale that a crazy man is hunting down. As an adult the depth on some levels probably still escapes me but I recognize depth that I didn't as a teenager. Story is like that, it can evolve with our understanding and our maturity and we don't battle those conceptions against each other in other contexts, we mature. Story presents to different levels. The creation accounts are just so obviously story and story as symbol to me I have never concerned myself over the literalness from a Christian perspective - I was stuck with that literalness as a Mormon. (FYI, this is another reason S/R is wrong - a Dartmouth graduate would have never made the literalistic mistakes J.S. did, we'll save that for later).

As a life-long theist, that is becoming an increasingly difficult pill for me to swallow. In the end, unless I find some profound solution, I may be forced to radically alter my conception of "God." You seem to have already done that to a certain extent.


I still need your conception of God to be articulated, as of right now all I can say is it seems to be a literal conception of scripture not God per se that your struggling with, that isn't a radical shift at all. Augustine, other church fathers, even the author of the Epistle John have you by nearly two thousand years.

I am certainly with you on the notion that Dawkins is a "fundamentalist." Dawkins, and people like him, defend atheism with equal (or greater) zeal than many theists defend religion. To the point where a central tenant of the religion of atheism is the need to disprove the Christian God--as evidenced here by Buffalo's logic. Atheism, in that sense, becomes more than a casual disbelief (based on asserted lack of evidence) but instead a dogma to be defended at any and all costs and on multiple fronts.


Here I think I agree, I think the current atheism is a much less sophisticated expression than its historical parents were, maybe just pandering to a different audience - maybe just not as sophisticated at all.

This is where, as a lifelong theist, I have a hard time. I find it nearly incredible to think that God for inexplicable reasons purposefully chose to create me (and every other human) through a progression of evolution from trillions upon trillions of living creatures which necessarily includes multiple trillions of what appears to be painful deaths (as animals consume other animals), an equal number of mistakes (deformities) through many millenia just to get us to a point where he could apparently start implanting souls into a "human" frame. And the implication would be that at some point, some "human" let's say Adam, had a soul implanted whereas his parents were merely animals.

I am laying open one of the issues I am currently struggling with as I attempt to deal with the problem of evolution vs. my traditional view of the Biblical God. Quite honestly and candidly, I do not know how to resolve the issue.


Which exact issue? Generally I recommend, Read. think. Then Read and think. Then Read and think. Never over read one side, you'll end up like Buffalo (tongue in cheek Buff) or Dinosaurs and cavemen in museums. I might recommend John Polkinghorne, Denis Alexander, and John Haught to start with, but don't read them like it has to be biblical truth from heaven. Take the other conceptual constructs out for a spin.

Ya know, your a lot more pleasant over here.

my regards, mikwut
Last edited by Guest on Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_mikwut
_Emeritus
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:20 am

Re: Science 4,586,384,421, God 0

Post by _mikwut »

DrW:

I would venture to guess that both Roger and BCSPace were atheistic with regard to Zeus, the sky god of the Greeks and "father of gods and men". They are most likely also atheistic infidels when it comes to Allah.

BCSpace and Roger are certainly atheists when it come to hundreds (if not thousands) of deities (most of whom they have never heard of) - and rightly so.

After all, as Sigmund Freud asked,
Quote:
"Am I to believe every absurdity? If not, why this one in particular?"

Some of us just add one more absurdity to the list.

And believe me, those who do are much the better for it.


I am somewhat baffled that a man of your education doesn't provide more substance than this popular cliché bandied in superficial atheistic literature. I for example believe in God. I recognize there were many Greeks that didn't keep a literalistic idea of the Gods that are portrayed in say the Clash of the Titans, I recognize the deep and rich similarities of Allah to the Christian God and believe in both as conceptual targets of the God all of us struggle to discern. I believe in all the Gods just not every midguided idea about them. They all express concepts that the human self has longed for, debated, discussed and believed in for ever.

my regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_mikwut
_Emeritus
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:20 am

Re: Science 4,586,384,421, God 0

Post by _mikwut »

BCSpace,

I am left unsatisfied. The revelation given to J.S. in the D&C doesn't seem as elastic as you want it or the Institute Manual to be.

regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_bcspace
_Emeritus
Posts: 18534
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Re: Science 4,586,384,421, God 0

Post by _bcspace »

The statment which represents the position of the church has to do with the origin of Man which certainly is in conflict with evoltionary science, but you seem to lack reading comprenshion when it suits you.


Well, like I said, when your aready, feel free to point out specifically what portion precludes evolution in LDS doctrine and also explain why the first presidency of Heber J Grant didn't think it precluded it either in the case of preAdamite races.

I realise that some leaders may have different opionons but this statemnt does represent the church's positon at that time, and it shows that i was correct


It still represents the Church's position (being republished in the Ensign within the last decade. But it certainly doesn't show you were correct. I think you're afraid to point out how it precludes evolution because you realize it doesn't say any such thing. Go ahead. I dare you. Post the section of the 1909 statement which you think precludes evolution.

This does not even take into account the scriptures which Dr W has been going over.


My hypothesis has taken into account all scripture on the subject. When you're up to it, feel free to post which parts of my hypothesis that is in conflict with LDS scripture. Feel free to specifically address the points of my hypothesis you think are egregious instead of issuing general denials.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_bcspace
_Emeritus
Posts: 18534
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Re: Science 4,586,384,421, God 0

Post by _bcspace »

I am left unsatisfied. The revelation given to J.S. in the D&C doesn't seem as elastic as you want it or the Institute Manual to be.


Well, if you are a member of the Church, it is all you have. Neither you nor I is qualified to interpret scripture for the Church and there are no other doctrinal statements I'm aware of that present a different pov.

My overall pov is to be in harmony with LDS doctrine and the institute manual, which is official doctrine by the Church's own definition, proves that I am.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_mikwut
_Emeritus
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:20 am

Re: Science 4,586,384,421, God 0

Post by _mikwut »

Hello BCSpace

Well, if you are a member of the Church, it is all you have.


We all have to speculate concerning the unknown parts of our paradigms, your radical dismissal of what is plainly in front of you is beyond rational speculation.

Neither you nor I is qualified to interpret scripture for the Church and there are no other doctrinal statements I'm aware of that present a different pov.


I am certainly qualified to read the clear meaning of the words in the D&C. I am certainly qualified to recognize the institute manual doesn't offer you elasticity to the claims and speculations your making . In fact I am more than qualified to do so and simply being a rational and honest human being.

My overall pov is to be in harmony with LDS doctrine and the institute manual, which is official doctrine by the Church's own definition, proves that I am.


Not at any intellectual and rational cost. And, No it doesn't, plainly it doesn't. The statement historical is understood in allowing for leeway with the geologic age of the earth which was still a stretch. Trying to fit a literal Adam and Eve (even with pre-adamites) to 7000 years ago is simply outside the rational bounds of the clear meaning of the revelation to J.S. I think your answers almost say this, you just have to accept the church at any cost including such a plain passage and its meaning.

my regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_Themis
_Emeritus
Posts: 13426
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: Science 4,586,384,421, God 0

Post by _Themis »

bcspace wrote:[
Well, like I said, when your aready, feel free to point out specifically what portion precludes evolution in LDS doctrine and also explain why the first presidency of Heber J Grant didn't think it precluded it either in the case of preAdamite races.


Like I said, I already have. I am not going to play your little game of playing dumb.

I think you're afraid to point out how it precludes evolution because you realize it doesn't say any such thing. Go ahead. I dare you. Post the section of the 1909 statement which you think precludes evolution.


I already have, as other have as well. I posted the section for you. I can't do anymore. You are either just playing dumb, or you really are lacking reading skills.

My hypothesis has taken into account all scripture on the subject. When you're up to it, feel free to post which parts of my hypothesis that is in conflict with LDS scripture. Feel free to specifically address the points of my hypothesis you think are egregious instead of issuing general denials.


You would need to articualte what exactly is your hypothesis.
42
_bcspace
_Emeritus
Posts: 18534
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Re: Science 4,586,384,421, God 0

Post by _bcspace »

Well, like I said, when your aready, feel free to point out specifically what portion precludes evolution in LDS doctrine and also explain why the first presidency of Heber J Grant didn't think it precluded it either in the case of preAdamite races.

Like I said, I already have.


Which post in this thread? I guess you'll have to edit one to make it kind of true. lol
Let me know when you've completed your edit to include the phrase or phrases in the 1909 statement that supposedly preclude evolution.

I am not going to play your little game of playing dumb.


No, I see you're going to play your own game of dumb.

I already have, as other have as well. I posted the section for you. I can't do anymore. You are either just playing dumb, or you really are lacking reading skills.


Which post? C'mon. Don't be shy.

You would need to articualte what exactly is your hypothesis.


My fifth post on page three. See? That wasn't so hard. Now you try it.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: Science 4,586,384,421, God 0

Post by _moksha »

Ceeboo wrote:Is that REALLY the score?

4,586,384,421 to zero?

Wow!

Talk about an ass kicking.


Peace,
Ceeboo


Any score is based on the assumption that everything in scriptures is to be taken literally. This approach does not let new light and wisdom enter into our thinking, yet new ideas and understandings occur all the time. Obviously we can not let faulty data from the past paint us into a corner.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: Science 4,586,384,421, God 0

Post by _moksha »

This is neither a case of 15-love nor a match point game. It is a case of religion slowly allowing science to help expand its knowledge base and boundaries.

.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
Post Reply