The gnat-strainer prize.

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_Darth J
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Re: The gnat-strainer prize.

Post by _Darth J »

logjamislds wrote:No; you're still trying to weasel out of the challenge. I said an equivalent to the Book of Mormon; not a 3,000 word "story" which virtually anyone could write. That's less than 1/100th of the Book of Mormon. Anyone who has written a book, as I have, will tell you that keeping it up until completion is the hard part. I think you suffer from premature extrapolation. You owe me about 300,000 more words.


If virtually anyone could write it, then you could write it, too. You've got 2 hours. Get going.

But if I owe you something, that must mean that you are volunteering to be my Martin Harris and support me financially while I undertake this task. Are you willing to do that? How about this: to keep it simple, we'll go by U.S. per capita yearly income (you've allowed a year to write this book). In 2010, that was $39,945. Joseph Smith has someone paying his way while the Book of Mormon was written---and that's assuming without proof that he didn't actually have six years or more to work on it (from the time he started talking about plates).

To show that you're serious, give Dr. Shades, the moderator of the board, $39,945.00 to hold in escrow so that we're following the parameters Joseph Smith had, that being a patron to support him while he worked. Once I confirm that Dr. Shades has received these funds, I will start working. If I finish the book in time, I get the money. If not, you get it back. I'm not going to rely on promises; I want to see that you're serious. Put up or shut up.

However, I see that you are deliberately ignoring the translation of the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon by Christopher Nemelka. Do you think his translation is truly from God? If not, then you have to write a comparable translation of a missing ancient scripture, or concede that Christopher Nemelka is a prophet of God.

by the way: I'm actually offering you a chance for money and glory. If you could actually pull this off, Christian bookstores would be clamoring for your volume; you'd be invited on lucrative speaking tours. The anti-L.D.S. world would have, at last, the means to break that "keystone of our religion." This is a serious endeavor I'm pointing you towards; no 3,000 word essay is going to cover it. Come on, get cracking. You've wasted 4 days so far; about 361 left to go. Put up or shut up.


No, they wouldn't, because part of your challenge is that I have to have witnesses who swear to their dying day that what I wrote is true. Did you already forget the conditions of your challenge?

Also, creating a derivative work---even if witnesses attested to it---would not disprove the Book of Mormon. It is the lack of any relationship to the pre-Columbian Americas, linguistic problems, and the plagiarism of biblical verses that would not have been known to the Nephites that disprove the Book of Mormon.

You seem to have declined my Koran Challenge. That means that Islam is the one, true religion. Allahu Akbar!

Alternative counter-challenge: I concede the argument that I never made---that creating a book like the Book of Mormon, even with attesting witnesses, would not disprove the Book of Mormon. That being conceded, believers have had 182 years to find a Nephite artifact. Show me one. Put up or shut up.
_SteelHead
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Re: The gnat-strainer prize.

Post by _SteelHead »

You are mighty generous with your time Darth. I wouldn't even type a word unless there was at least 6 figures entering the equation.
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_Darth J
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Re: The gnat-strainer prize.

Post by _Darth J »

SteelHead wrote:You are mighty generous with your time Darth. I wouldn't even type a word unless there was at least 6 figures entering the equation.


Well, I figure I'm going to try to sell the copyright in Canada when I'm done.
_Drifting
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Re: The gnat-strainer prize.

Post by _Drifting »

logjamislds wrote:I said an equivalent to the Book of Mormon; not a 3,000 word "story" which virtually anyone could write.


Anyone else see the hapless ironic contradiction within this statement...?

I remain strongly suspicious that logjamlds is a mechanism specifically designed to make the Church look bad, rather than a poster that clearly has no knowledge of the religion he is supposedly defending.

In fact almost every post they make adds flesh to the bones of this suspicion.
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_Runtu
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Re: The gnat-strainer prize.

Post by _Runtu »

What I wonder is why people think these gnat-straining arguments work with anyone. Most of the time, when people (on any side of a question) resort to excruciating parsing of words, saying that "well, I can say that without actually lying," it convinces no one and ends up making the person and the side they are defending look bad.

Back when I was on the debate team, I was taught to find a weak point in the opponent's argument and then do what I could to turn it into a gaping hole; it really didn't matter whether the rest of the argument was sound or morally right, as long as you could exploit the tiniest weakness, inaccuracy, or gap in the argument. This is why whenever Grant Palmer's book is mentioned in some circles, people say, "Oh, yes, the Golden Pot" and roll their eyes, as if this one weakness in Palmer's book invalidates everything he wrote.

It doesn't work with me, and I don't think it works with most people, except maybe the gnat-strainers themselves. If they "win" a particular point, it's a Pyrrhic victory at best.
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_brade
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Re: The gnat-strainer prize.

Post by _brade »

subgenius wrote:
Darth J wrote:... "the Koran Challenge." The Koran invites those who dispute its authenticity to produce a sura like it. But that might actually be possible, so I'm going to hedge my bet. Not only do you have to produce a sura like it, you have to get people to believe in what you wrote so fanatically that they will become suicide bombers and fly airplanes into buildings.

Until you meet that challenge, you have to concede that the Koran is the word of God and Islam is the one, true religion. No excuses. Put up or shut up.

I am not familiar with the challenge you write of...a sura is likened to a chapter, of which there are about 114.
I suggest you check out the 29th sura (The Spider)

As for getting people to believe in something enough to kill, that is no way to hedge your bet. That type of convincing is easily done (ie. Jim Jones, Manson, Bush, etc..)
It is much harder to get people to give of themselves, or better, to be selfless....wait


I'm sure there aren't any Muslims who give of themselves, or better, are selfless because of the Koran. Right?
_subgenius
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Re: The gnat-strainer prize.

Post by _subgenius »

brade wrote:I'm sure there aren't any Muslims who give of themselves, or better, are selfless because of the Koran. Right?

probably not right.
but what does that have to do with one being harder than the other?
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_logjamislds
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Re: The gnat-strainer prize.

Post by _logjamislds »

I'm willing to pay you exactly what God paid Joseph Smith to translate the book. You're still weaseling out of the proposal. Joseph Smith didn't pose any conditions to translating the book; he just got to work and did it. To make an equal document, I would expect the same from you. Martin Harris didn't pay Joseph any wages; he just paid for publication of the book. By the way: if you truly want to shut me up, you mentioned in a previous post that you'd already written a 3,000 word story, which, if extrapolated over a year's time, would equal the Book of Mormon. Know what? I think you're lying. I don't think you wrote a 3,000 word story. If you did, post it here within 24 hours, and I will, truly, offer my apologies and drop this issue. Until I see that story, I still accuse you of neither putting up nor shutting up re: The Book of Mormon. 24 hours, from my clock, 12:25 PM, Thursday. Let's see your story. (And I expect it to be as detailed, verifiable, and fast-paced as the first 3,000 words of 1 Nephi.) And, yes, verifiiable; ever read Nibley's "Lehi in the Desert"?
_schreech
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Re: The gnat-strainer prize.

Post by _schreech »

logjamislds wrote:I'm willing to pay you exactly what God paid Joseph Smith to translate the book. You're still weaseling out of the proposal. Joseph Smith didn't pose any conditions to translating the book; he just got to work and did it. To make an equal document, I would expect the same from you. Martin Harris didn't pay Joseph any wages; he just paid for publication of the book. By the way: if you truly want to shut me up, you mentioned in a previous post that you'd already written a 3,000 word story, which, if extrapolated over a year's time, would equal the Book of Mormon. Know what? I think you're lying. I don't think you wrote a 3,000 word story. If you did, post it here within 24 hours, and I will, truly, offer my apologies and drop this issue. Until I see that story, I still accuse you of neither putting up nor shutting up re: The Book of Mormon. 24 hours, from my clock, 12:25 PM, Thursday. Let's see your story. (And I expect it to be as detailed, verifiable, and fast-paced as the first 3,000 words of 1 Nephi.) And, yes, verifiiable; ever read Nibley's "Lehi in the Desert"?


Uh, he posted it in this thread but since you missed it the first time:

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... =1&t=16995

I am assuming you will apologize considering its significantly more interesting than the first book of nephi. What does "verifiable" mean anyway?
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_brade
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Re: The gnat-strainer prize.

Post by _brade »

subgenius wrote:
brade wrote:I'm sure there aren't any Muslims who give of themselves, or better, are selfless because of the Koran. Right?

probably not right.
but what does that have to do with one being harder than the other?


Your response to DarthJ was to say that it's easy to convince people to kill but much harder to get people to be selfless. My snarky point was that there are lots of selfless Muslims who don't kill people. DarthJ's Koran challenge could easily be modified so as not to be subject to your quibble.
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