Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Jensen

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_Buffalo
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:
7 billion people in the world. That leaves 6,986,000,000 non members. I think BC has it right when he thinks this is over blown. The church is just inconsequential.


The Bible does say "few there be that find it".


I guess we're just going to forget about that "stone cut without hands" bit now.

http://LDS.org/ensign/1976/05/the-stone ... s?lang=eng
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _Fence Sitter »

bcspace wrote:
7 billion people in the world. That leaves 6,986,000,000 non members. I think BC has it right when he thinks this is over blown. The church is just inconsequential.


The Bible does say "few there be that find it".



True, and now it seems even fewer are hanging on to it.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_bcspace
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _bcspace »

MKJ also says near the end, "I think we have an obligation as the stewards of Church history to keep faith and retain the trust of the prophet and his fourteen associates in the administration of the Church. And to carry out whatever we do in a way that corresponds with their view and their goals for the Church generally so that we're not just a rogue or independent Church history department but we're nestled safely within the Church doing with Church history what the leaders of the Church and then hopefully what the Lord would want us to do."

And he prefaced that with "I want to say this delicately" but the reality is that there is no delicate way of putting the fact that what's produced will not damage faith or contradict doctrine.

The Bible does say "few there be that find it".

True, and now it seems even fewer are hanging on to it.


Church membership is still increasing and inactive and TR percentages seem to be remaining the same so that's not true. But yes, the world has indeed already been through a universal apostasy.
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_bcspace
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

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I guess we're just going to forget about that "stone cut without hands" bit now.


Why would we or should we? The prophecy says nothing about membership numbers.
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Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
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_Runtu
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _Runtu »

bcspace wrote:No, I really don't see Book of Mormon "anachronisms" coming up very often and I have a pretty good handle on the pulse of the classes and doctrinal questions that arise. Of course it could be that the NOMs and DAMUs have heard of me and don't want to argue against someone they can't win against or embarrass. I find that most of these types of questions are not from honest truth seekers but from those who are already lost and don't want to be recovered. It's usually their last attempt to cause some damage before going totally dark.


Of course it doesn't come up in church settings; that's intended. The problem with Book of Mormon anachronisms is that there are only two possible answers: either the evidence hasn't been discovered yet, or the text doesn't really mean what it says. The steel problem is extremely problematic not because of the word "steel"; it's problematic because smelting technology is described, and is said to have been taught to the people, and the products of said smelting are supposed to have been used as weapons of war. Because there is no evidence of smelting (and in fact lots of evidence for the kind of firing technology that was used) and no sign whatsoever that smelted metals were ever used as weapons of war, we are told that the text really doesn't mean any of that.

That kind of dissembling may work with some people, but not with most.
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_bcspace
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

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Of course it doesn't come up in church settings; that's intended.


I'm not talking about lessons. I'm talking about (as I'm sure was originally intended) people asking the questions in class or going the bishop or stake pres with them. It just doesn't happen here.
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_Buffalo
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:
I guess we're just going to forget about that "stone cut without hands" bit now.


Why would we or should we? The prophecy says nothing about membership numbers.


Filling all the earth, sure. In an extremely diluted fashion.

Classic.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _Quasimodo »

bcspace wrote:
I'm not talking about lessons. I'm talking about (as I'm sure was originally intended) people asking the questions in class or going the bishop or stake pres with them. It just doesn't happen here.


I'm guessing those sort of questions are not well received. They may not be asking, but many of them must be thinking.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _Zelder »

bcspace wrote:
7 billion people in the world. That leaves 6,986,000,000 non members. I think BC has it right when he thinks this is over blown. The church is just inconsequential.


The Bible does say "few there be that find it".


Nephi prophesied that our numbers would be small but spread throughout the world. This is all to be expected. However, I don't think Mormons are inconsequential. The influence and voice of Mormonism is being heard and felt. Likewise, even though the state of Israel is small in both size and numbers they are not inconsequential.
_Buffalo
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _Buffalo »

Zelder wrote:
Nephi prophesied that our numbers would be small but spread throughout the world. This is all to be expected. However, I don't think Mormons are inconsequential. The influence and voice of Mormonism is being heard and felt. Likewise, even though the state of Israel is small in both size and numbers they are not inconsequential.


Mormons ARE inconsequential. What contributions have we made to art, literature, science, politics, etc? Very few and far between. Jewish people, though also small in number, are hugely influential. There's no comparison.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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