Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

[_Runtu]

As has been explained to you many times, iron weapons were rare. The predominant weapons were made of more commonly found materials such as wood, bone, etc. You are just hung up on the concept that there was an iron age in the Nephite civilizaion. The way you justify this to yourself is you note that steel crafting was known to Nephi and this, according to you, triggered an iron age in the civilization that arose from his small colony (even amoung the Lamanite, who had no knowledge of this craft). You just careen from bad assumption to bad assumption based on a very selective and distorted reading of the Book of Mormon and that is all.

Here's the problem.

1. The text says that the Nephites had specific technologies and abundant supplies of certain materials over two thousand years. This is not "according to me."
2. Archaeological evidence shows that these technologies were not used and there were no such abundant supplies.
3. You conclude, then, that the text doesn't mean what it says, and instead accuse me of reading my own assumptions into the text.

Yours is an intellectually dishonest approach to the text.

[_Tobin]

1. The text says that the Nephites had specific technologies and abundant supplies of certain materials over two thousand years. This is not "according to me."
2. Archaeological evidence shows that these technologies were not used and there were no such abundant supplies.
3. You conclude, then, that the text doesn't mean what it says, and instead accuse me of reading my own assumptions into the text.

1. THE COLONY had ample supplies. You then carry this into the absurd by assuming the entire Nephite civilization had vast supplies of the material and crafters to make iron weapons (basically an iron age). You note in Helaman that they found lots of precious metals and ores. You then assume this includes vast amounts of iron ore. That's absurd.
2. You are correct - there is no evidence of an iron age, because there was no iron age. Iron was definitely mined since a primitive iron mine was found in Peru. However, like elsewhere in the world, the craft of making iron weapons was a specialized knowledge and the number of iron weapons was undoubtedly low. This resulted in the vaste majority of weapons used by Lamanite and Nephite being made of more commonly found materials such as wood, bone, etc.
3. I don't conclude anything. I'm stating that you are misreading and scewing the text to say what you want when it is clear (like in Alma 24) that the swords employed by the Lamanites for example, were not iron. Also, you have never explained how the Lamanites learned the craft of steel forging prior to their civilizations merging other than your general assertion that the Book of Mormon describes the rise of an iron age.

I'm sure this fits nicely in the house of cards that you construct for yourself to knock down each time to reassure yourself the Book of Mormon can't be true. But it is only an exercise in self-deception.

[_Runtu]

I'm sure this fits nicely in the house of cards that you construct for yourself to knock down each time to reassure yourself the Book of Mormon can't be true. But it is only an exercise in self-deception.

If your tortured reading of the text works for you, have at it.

[_Drifting]

Metal swords are rare in the Book of Mormon, and so likely to be rare in the archaeological record.

Rare as in millions of Jaredites, Nephites and Lamanites used them in battles where most of them died, usually on the same small hill in New York State.

Few weapons of any kind have been found by archaeologists in Mesoamerica- its challenging environment leaves no surprise that metallic weapons have yet to be found there.

You are obviously flat out wrong - see Quasi's response

The critics' argument is from silence on this topic - the old "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" claim that they love to wave around (selectively).

The silence appears to be coming from the archeologists hunting for Book of Mormon evidence.

Swords clearly existed in Mesoamerica, and they were so labeled by Spanish conquistadors.

Did the Spanish find evidence of swords from Book of Mormon times?
If I go to America now I can find evidence of cars, does that mean there were cars in America 500 years ago?

Some descriptions of Nephite/Lamanite swords make more sense if a non-metallic sword such as a macahuitl is indicated by the text. Metal swords are easily cleaned and do not stain with blood, but the wooden handles of a macuahuitl or other sword-like weapon could absorb blood and become stained.

If, but, could - what a shame the Book of Mormon is missing the word 'wood' from every single description of weaponry contained within in it.

and once again...the gnat strainers appear....don't they realize what happens at the end of that fable???

Why are you asking yourself questions?

[_bcuzbcuz]

As has been explained to you many times, iron weapons were rare. The predominant weapons were made of more commonly found materials such as wood, bone, etc. You are just hung up on the concept that there was an iron age in the Nephite civilizaion. The way you justify this to yourself is you note that steel crafting was known to Nephi and this, according to you, triggered an iron age in the civilization that arose from his small colony (even amoung the Lamanite, who had no knowledge of this craft). You just careen from bad assumption to bad assumption based on a very selective and distorted reading of the Book of Mormon and that is all.

The Book of Mormon clearly states that steel weapons existed during Nephite times. Absolutely NO steel has been discovered in North, Central or South America from pre-conquest times. Not even rust has been found.

Steel can readily exist for thousands of years without totally rusting away. The Romans ventured into northern Germany more than 2000 years ago and engaged in battle there. How do we know? Metal. Steel and iron goods to be specific.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/euro ... le-Feature

Over 1800 articles have been found. One of the most prevalent articles are hobnails. Roman soldiers had rows and rows of hobnails in their boots to give traction, both over rough terrain and in battle (blood and guts, etc). These hobnails were effective but had a tendency to loosen and fall out. Wherever soldiers tromped, trails of hobnails show that they were there.

And in the moist, cold, snowy, rainy, forested areas of northern Germany piles of hobnails, horseshoes (readily identifiable by their characteristic plate and hook form) and lance and spearheads. Yes, these metal objects have rusted, but not rusted into nothingness. They were easily found using metal detectors once the site had been identified as a possible archaeological site.

So if iron/steel objects from 9 A.D. have been found in the forests of Germany, left by three legions (between 9000 to 15000 soldiers) whatever happened to the swords, breastplates, etc, etc from Esther 15???????

It took 4 years to gather the troops for the final battle in Esther, so one can assume they were a considerable number of soldiers??? Millions of Jaredites were slain. How come no remains?

[_Tobin]

The Book of Mormon clearly states that steel weapons existed during Nephite times. Absolutely NO steel has been discovered in North, Central or South America from pre-conquest times. Not even rust has been found.

Steel can readily exist for thousands of years without totally rusting away. The Romans ventured into northern Germany more than 2000 years ago and engaged in battle there. How do we know? Metal. Steel and iron goods to be specific.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/euro ... le-Feature

Over 1800 articles have been found. One of the most prevalent articles are hobnails. Roman soldiers had rows and rows of hobnails in their boots to give traction, both over rough terrain and in battle (blood and guts, etc). These hobnails were effective but had a tendency to loosen and fall out. Wherever soldiers tromped, trails of hobnails show that they were there.

And in the moist, cold, snowy, rainy, forested areas of northern Germany piles of hobnails, horseshoes (readily identifiable by their characteristic plate and hook form) and lance and spearheads. Yes, these metal objects have rusted, but not rusted into nothingness. They were easily found using metal detectors once the site had been identified as a possible archaeological site.

So if iron/steel objects from 9 A.D. have been found in the forests of Germany, left by three legions (between 9000 to 15000 soldiers) whatever happened to the swords, breastplates, etc, etc from Esther 15???????

It took 4 years to gather the troops for the final battle in Esther, so one can assume they were a considerable number of soldiers??? Millions of Jaredites were slain. How come no remains?

You've added NOTHING whatsoever to the discussion. You are speaking about an empire during the iron age and are loosely mixing up the Jaredites and Nephites (two completely different civilizations) As far as the Jaredites are concenred, where was the battleground at precisely? And according to Mosiah, the swords had mostly rusted away by their time. I'd love to hear your explanation how we are going to identify swords from a deposit of iron oxide (which there is a lot of that in North and South America by the way)? It's a mental fiction you have created for youself where the Book of Mormon MUST of described an iron age when in reality it does not.

[_Drifting]

Tobin, we know the exact hill in New York state where significant finds should be made of Book of Mormon steel. We know the location because Mormon Prophets have told us that.

[_Tobin]

Tobin, we know the exact hill in New York state where significant finds should be made of Book of Mormon steel. We know the location because Mormon Prophets have told us that.

The exact hill of what? Where the Jaredites fought or the Nephites? The only steel swords in large numbers were employed by Jaredites so it is kind of important. And I'd love to hear where this hill is by the way. Are you sure it isn't just speculation by a Mormon prophet instead that it is in New York? FYI - the Olmecs, I mean Jaredites, lived in Central America. It's a long hike to NY from there.

[_Drifting]

I mean Jaredites, lived in Central America.

CFR

[_Tobin]

I mean Jaredites, lived in Central America.

CFR

The battles of the Nephites or Jaredites didn't happen where the Book of Mormon was left for Joseph Smith. It was buried up in NY for Joseph Smith to find. Another bad assumption that they are the same place.