The Book of Abraham - Shifting sands

[_Shulem]

Joseph Smith, prophet, seer, and translator declared to all the world via the Times & Seasons that the name SHULEM was contained in the hieroglyphic writing of Facsimile No. 3 as designated by the Explanation. Every single believing Latter-day Saint who belonged to Joseph's new church believed he had the power to read and translate the ancient Egyptian language into English and they believed the name SHULEM was truly in the Egyptian writing of the Facismile.

So, Joseph Smith translated and the entire Mormon church believed the name Shulem was actually written in hieroglyphic form and that the Lord had made this known via revelation as he did the Book of Mormon or any other Mormon revelation.

I bear testimony that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a manmade organization and is built upon the foundation of lies and deception -- Joseph Smith being the chief ring leader and liar of an unholy faith. I know my witness is true. It is based on fact, reason, and common sense. Besides, I can read Egyptian for myself -- I know Joseph Smith lied.

Paul O

[_Shulem]

Oh, after many discussions with you, I can believe it.

I see you can only attack others instead of dealing with this. I never expected you would, so I only bring it up to expose some of the problems with the catalyst theory. If anyone else who believes in the catalyst theory wants to try and tackle the problems I am all ears.

Tobin is brain dead. You cannot reach him.

Paul O

[_Spektical]

This is where you're losing me. Why do you think the story of Abraham (as described in the Book of Abraham) is true? Why do you think it's based on revelation at all? Why would God allow his own prophet to be so utterly clueless as to the mode and method of revelation itself, which is the primary thing that makes one a prophet in the first place. If a prophet cannot be relied upon to know when or how he is getting a revelation from God, then of what use is he?

Again, you don't believe Joseph Smith because of the books he supposedly translated or did not translate. The simple fact is he did not know ancient languages and could not have known ancient languages like these because the expertise did not exist. If he were able to produce any books from an ancient language, it would only be by the power of God. And the only way to know that he did indeed do that is to receive a witness to that fact yourself. Otherwise, there is no reason to believe he could do it all because he demonstrably had no expertise in any of these languages.

"Spiritual" experiences were the last things I held onto before discarding belief in Mormonism. At a certain point, when the contrary and contradicting evidence becomes too great, you have to soberly reassess the significance of such experiences. Realizing that people of all religious faiths lay claim to such experiences and passionately aver that they are confirmatory of the correctness of their particular religious path was the resolution I needed.

In fact, your entire perspective on this issue reveals just how unreliable a "spiritual" witness is for purposes of identifying objective truth. If an alleged prophet of God can't even correctly decipher what is and is not a true revelation from God, then what hope do you have? It's one thing to call Joseph clueless or stupid, but when that cluelessness or stupidity relates directly to what is supposed to make him a prophet (i.e. revelation), then that is a serious problem.

[_son of Ishmael]

"Spiritual" experiences were the last things I held onto before discarding belief in Mormonism.

Same with me. But once I got over that last obstacle and looked back at my old beliefs I was shocked at some of the stupid stuff I not only believed but held dear

[_Tobin]

"Spiritual" experiences were the last things I held onto before discarding belief in Mormonism. At a certain point, when the contrary and contradicting evidence becomes too great, you have to soberly reassess the significance of such experiences. Realizing that people of all religious faiths lay claim to such experiences and passionately aver that they are confirmatory of the correctness of their particular religious path was the resolution I needed.

In fact, your entire perspective on this issue reveals just how unreliable a "spiritual" witness is for purposes of identifying objective truth. If an alleged prophet of God can't even correctly decipher what is and is not a true revelation from God, then what hope do you have? It's one thing to call Joseph clueless or stupid, but when that cluelessness or stupidity relates directly to what is supposed to make him a prophet (i.e. revelation), then that is a serious problem.

You are under the mistaken impression that revelation is restricted to Joseph Smith. Determining if Mormonism is true is an act of revelation. God must reveal the truth to you. By asking you to do that, Mormons are asking you to engage God and be a prophet. You don't believe in what Joseph Smith may or may not have said came from God because of what Joseph Smith says. You believe it because it is consistent with what God tells you.

[_Spektical]

You are under the mistaken impression that revelation is restricted to Joseph Smith. Determining if Mormonism is true is an act of revelation. God must reveal the truth to you. By asking you to do that, Mormons are asking you to engage God and be a prophet. You don't believe in what Joseph Smith may or may not have said came from God because of what Joseph Smith says. You believe it because it is consistent with what God tells you.

I never said that. I'm simply pointing out that if Smith, who is supposed to be a prophet and an expert at receiving revelation from God, cannot tell the difference between his own thoughts and actual revelation from God, then what are your chances? How do you know the "witness" you refer to is nothing more than a figurative funerary papyrus? Smith couldn't figure it out, so what is your method?

[_Tobin]

You are under the mistaken impression that revelation is restricted to Joseph Smith. Determining if Mormonism is true is an act of revelation. God must reveal the truth to you. By asking you to do that, Mormons are asking you to engage God and be a prophet. You don't believe in what Joseph Smith may or may not have said came from God because of what Joseph Smith says. You believe it because it is consistent with what God tells you.

I never said that. I'm simply pointing out that if Smith, who is supposed to be a prophet and an expert at receiving revelation from God, cannot tell the difference between his own thoughts and actual revelation from God, then what are your chances? How do you know the "witness" you refer to is nothing more than a figurative funerary papyrus? Smith couldn't figure it out, so what is your method?

I just told you. The witness is God himself. That is the point of Mormonism, the Book of Mormon, and all the other stuff Joseph Smith was up to. If Joseph Smith said or did such and such and it was from God, then God must tell you it was from him; otherwise, it wasn't. The point of these books is not the books themselves. They never have been. It is to get you to actually speak with God and from there make your own determinations. God doesn't want you to rely on fallible, flawed men for an understanding of God. God wants you to speak with him yourself.

[_Spektical]

I just told you. The witness is God himself. That is the point of Mormonism, the Book of Mormon, and all the other stuff Joseph Smith was up to. If Joseph Smith said or did such and such and it was from God, then God must tell you it was from him; otherwise, it wasn't. The point of these books is not the books themselves. They never have been. It is to get you to actually speak with God and from there make your own determinations. God doesn't want you to rely on fallible, flawed men for an understanding of God. God wants you to speak with him yourself.

If God is so accessible, and if you can just get personal revelation from him on everything that is important, then why rely on Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, the Bible, the church, or anything else for that matter? Everyone gets their own personal conduit to God, and whatever they think they receive through that conduit is the final word, and cannot be challenged by anyone else. Your idea of personal revelation obviates the need for Joseph Smith altogether.

Hey, if it helps you stop paying tithing to LDS, Inc., then more power to you.

[_Tobin]

I just told you. The witness is God himself. That is the point of Mormonism, the Book of Mormon, and all the other stuff Joseph Smith was up to. If Joseph Smith said or did such and such and it was from God, then God must tell you it was from him; otherwise, it wasn't. The point of these books is not the books themselves. They never have been. It is to get you to actually speak with God and from there make your own determinations. God doesn't want you to rely on fallible, flawed men for an understanding of God. God wants you to speak with him yourself.

If God is so accessible, and if you can just get personal revelation from him on everything that is important, then why rely on Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, the Bible, the church, or anything else for that matter? Everyone gets their own personal conduit to God, and whatever they think they receive through that conduit is the final word, and cannot be challenged by anyone else. Your idea of personal revelation obviates the need for Joseph Smith altogether.
Hey, if it helps you stop paying tithing to LDS, Inc., then more power to you.

Of course God is that accessible. That is the point. The LDS Church is in apostasy because they have strayed from this doctrine and told people to rely on men and feelings instead. The point of the scriptures and the teaching of the prophets is to get one to speak with God directly. The Church is and should be merely an association of members and the leaders should not dictate doctrine. The leaders should instead serve and help the members is all. All else should come from God alone.

[_Themis]

Joseph Smith, prophet, seer, and translator declared to all the world via the Times & Seasons that the name SHULEM was contained in the hieroglyphic writing of Facsimile No. 3 as designated by the Explanation. Every single believing Latter-day Saint who belonged to Joseph's new church believed he had the power to read and translate the ancient Egyptian language into English and they believed the name SHULEM was truly in the Egyptian writing of the Facismile.

So, Joseph Smith translated and the entire Mormon church believed the name Shulem was actually written in hieroglyphic form and that the Lord had made this known via revelation as he did the Book of Mormon or any other Mormon revelation.

I bear testimony that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a manmade organization and is built upon the foundation of lies and deception -- Joseph Smith being the chief ring leader and liar of an unholy faith. I know my witness is true. It is based on fact, reason, and common sense. Besides, I can read Egyptian for myself -- I know Joseph Smith lied.

Paul O

This is an important point and destroys the catalyst theory. Joseph certainly did not know what was on the papyri, but he was willing to make it up. How does God give him the revelation on the facsimiles with them having nothing to do with Abraham. Why would Joseph be dumb enough to attach particular text with specific hieroglyphs. He would certainly know he would not be able to correctly get the right ones even if he believed papyri was about Abraham and Joseph. How did he differentiate which papyri represented Joesph's story. He did say which was which. If God didn't give him this information then he can only be making it up. In reality Joseph did to much with the papyri to be just getting it wrong.

Hint. He was making it up just as he did with so many other things. Joseph always needed to look like he was the man with things like the Greek document, or a bunch of native bones for Zelph the white lamanite. Not something a guy who supposedly talks to God and angels on a regular basis.