The LDS Church is NOT the only "True" church!

[_jo1952]

Jo, what religion are you an adherent of, if any?

Jo do you consider yourself a Mystic Mormon? This is something that I sought after and considered myself once upon a time. Are you active in the church, but feel the FP/q12 have somewhat fallen? Do you remain active in temple attendance?

Hello RockSlider,

Yes, I consider myself a Mystic Mormon.

I believe that anyone, regardless of who they are, or what position they do or do not hold, is capable of falling from moment to moment. God allows for this because He does not take away our free agency. We are also here so that we can learn from our choices -- be they for good or for evil. Even when we make what we think are good choices it can turn out that we actually made a selfish choice; such as was very common for Peter in his early days of Apostleship. However, he was never stripped of his calling, his powers were never taken away, and he maintained the keys of the kingdom.

Man is fallible - even when called as a Prophet and/or Apostle. When they make incorrect choices, which could also include basing an interpretation of a Truth they have received on an incorrect conclusion due to influences which are not of God, they can become a false Prophet, Apostle, or Teacher. Sometimes they can do this unintentionally; and sometimes they will do it intentionally. They can also be unaware they are perpetuating a prior teacher's error; OR be completely aware they are perpetuating a prior teacher's error. This is WHY we must each, as individuals, prayerfully and earnestly seek the Truth about what we are hearing being taught to us - even by our Leaders.

I am always picking on Peter as a good example of all of this. This time, though, I think I will use Oliver Cowdery as an example. In D&C 8, the Lord is revealing a message to Oliver through Joseph Smith concerning Oliver's desire to be able to have the power to translate from the plates. The Lord advises Oliver through Joseph Smith, that this gift will be granted; however, the Lord also counsels Oliver with the following:

D&C 8:11 Ask that you may know the mysteries of God, and that you may translate and receive knowledge from all those ancient records which have been hid up, that are sacred; and according to your faith shall it be done unto you.

Then, in D&C 9, we discover that Oliver loses this gift. This is what the Lord tells Oliver through Joseph Smith:

D&C 9:7-8

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

As we can see, even though the Lord gave a revelation to Oliver through the Prophet Joseph Smith, Oliver did not do what he had been counseled to do. So the gift was taken from him. This is an excellent lesson being taught to all of us. Even when a Prophet speaks to us, we must still do our part to make sure what we have heard is what we were supposed to hear. We should never assume that because a Prophet has spoken that the Prophet has first of all actually spoken what the Lord wanted him to say. Secondly, we need to make sure we have "heard" the correct interpretation of what was said; and then act upon what we have been taught.

I have sensed and seen where the leaders have fallen in some very specific areas as I have already shared. However, the Lord is still guiding the Church as it fulfills so many of His purposes for mankind. I do struggle; but I always seem to remember that there is no other religious institution that I have found which so eagerly teaches the members to always, always seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost. It is ONLY the Holy Ghost who leads to All Truth. There is no other religious institution which I have found which so closely teaches what the Holy Ghost has taught me. It is just in the last year that I seem to be at a crossroads searching and seeking more parts of All Truth which I am not yet able to find a source for within the Church. I wish Joseph were here still leading the Church, as he was receiving revelation about higher spiritual learning which I now crave.

I do seek through another source than the Church and am currently satisfied. I also continue to receive more and more Truth through scripture study. It takes me forever to get through even a short chapter as I keep seeing more and more.

I do hold a current Temple Recommend - though it has been a while since I have gone to a Temple.

Blessings,

jo

[_Tobin]

[I]t is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instruction for those in authority, higher than themselves . . . if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom. B.H. Roberts, History of the Church 1:338

Are Jo, Frank, faqs, or Tobin in a position of authority, whereby they are authorized to teach as revealed truths their personal revelations?

We are in a position to express our views of the gospel and encourage you to seek the Lord and your own answers from the Lord. This is how we approach the gospel and how all Mormons should. True doctrine comes from God and when you put the teachings of men (or your understandings) ahead of what God teaches, YOU ARE WRONG.

[_jo1952]

Hi Jo.... I'll try to respond as soon as I can (that was a long post). Kids, work, and finding a new and more permanent place to live is my current priority.

Thank you Ldsfaqs! Good luck on finding a new place to live. You will be in my prayers. (Sorry about the book - it is difficult not to be verbose when I am not sure how much another person I am communicating with is familiar with what I am talking about....)

Blessings,

jo

[_Franktalk]

We are in a position to express our views of the gospel and encourage you to seek the Lord and your own answers from the Lord. This is how we approach the gospel and how all Mormons should. True doctrine comes from God and when you put the teachings of men (or your understandings) ahead of what God teaches, YOU ARE WRONG.

The witness here on the earth is the Holy Ghost. The Word of God is not. It is here to get us going and for us to develop questions. The core gospel is pretty clear but beyond that one must ask for guidance. So yes, what you stated is correct as I understand it.

[_jo1952]

Jo,

I assume we are talking about the same thing (discourse given to some missionaries about why some end up as children in good Mormon families and why some end up to be born, starving and dying of aids in Ethiopia).

Since Mormons believe (well hell, used to not sure what they might believe about this now) in a first estate and a second estate, I’ve never viewed this as a reincarnation, but as a simple sequence; fixed sized matter/intelligence pool ->spiritual birth->first estate->mortal birth->second estate->death->degree of glory. Progression, not reincarnation.

Now, my personal understanding of the concept of reincarnation, in Mormon Doctrine, would be that of “the potters clay” i.e. total dissolution, to be thrown back into the matter/intelligence pool (i.e. total darkeness/son of perdition).

So, I don't understand your concept of reincation here.

Anyway, if you are ok with it, please answer my previous questions.

Hello RockSlider!

I am very much enjoying our exchange. Thank you for that!!

There is so much to share - some of it I have already shared in my own thread, as well as in a thread started by Sheryl, and several other threads on the Celestial Forum.

I will try to just give a synopsis. There are several passages in the Bible which speak of reincarnation. It is spoken of in a way which makes it appear that reincarnation was an accepted belief because it is not specifically spelled out. Joseph Smith spoke about reincarnation to some of his wives and personal friends; however, he referred to it as multiple probations. Other early Leaders in the Restored Church also spoke of it. Likewise, many Early Church Fathers of the ancient church wrote about believing in reincarnation. It is also a teaching in both the Hebrew Kabbalah, as well as Christian Kabbalah. It basically is that the same spirit goes through more than one incarnation, which means that in each incarnation, they have a different physical body; just the spirit is the same. It takes many incarnations to be able to learn All Truth and evolve to becoming One with Father and with Christ.

In LDS terminology, you could say that a spirit goes through several periods of their second estate. We reap what we sow in each incarnation. God does not "make up the difference" in our journey to keep God's commandment to "be perfect". We must learn to become perfect. Spirits who do not want to align with Father's will have a tougher time evolving. Some may have such a rebellious spirit that they can end up in what is called "outer darkness". If they still do not desire to align with God's will while in outer darkness, I believe they can go through a reforming of their intelligence so that their spirit will start the process of reincarnation all other again; going through this process as many times as required for them to eventually return to God's presence.

That is the very, very short version.

Blessings,

jo

[Guest]

We are in a position to express our views of the gospel and encourage you to seek the Lord and your own answers from the Lord. This is how we approach the gospel and how all Mormons should. True doctrine comes from God and when you put the teachings of men (or your understandings) ahead of what God teaches, YOU ARE WRONG.

The Mormon church allows you to have whatever doctrinal positions & opinions you would like. When you, however, teach "doctrine" that is contrary to the position of the church, you are in apostasy. You also, as noted in the above quote, when not in a position of authority eg possessing keys, and teaching to others your personal revelations, are in a position of apostasy.

When a man begins to find fault, inquiring in regard to this, that, and the other, saying, “Does this or that look as though the Lord dictated it?” [he is off his nut] you may know that that person has more or less of the spirit of apostasy. Every man in this Kingdom, or upon the face of the earth, who is seeking with all his heart to save himself, has as much to do as he can conveniently attend to, without calling in question that which does not belong to him. [see the above Joseph Smith quote on the economy of god regarding revelation] If he succeeds in saving himself, it has well occupied his time and attention. See to it that you are right yourselves; see that sins and folly do not manifest themselves with the rising sun(DBY, 83).

Many imbibe [conceive] the idea that they are capable of leading out in teaching principles that never have been taught. They are not aware that the moment they give way to this hallucination the Devil has power over them to lead them onto unholy ground; though this is a lesson which they ought to have learned long ago, yet it is one that was learned by but few in the days of Joseph (DBY, 77–78).

[Such a person] will make false prophecies, yet he will do it by the spirit of prophecy; he will feel that he is a prophet and can prophesy, but he does it by another spirit and power than that which was given him of the Lord. He uses the gift as much as you and I use ours (DBY, 82).

You may say that Brigham Young is off his nut, but Brigham would label you, Jo, ldsfaqs and whoever else teaching "doctrines" that have never been taught, apostates.

I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 156-157.)

The difference between you and I, I admit to being apostate. The rest of you "more spiritually affined" are by your own words apostates, why declaring yourselves fonts of higher spirituality.

[_Themis]

We are in a position to express our views of the gospel and encourage you to seek the Lord and your own answers from the Lord. This is how we approach the gospel and how all Mormons should. True doctrine comes from God and when you put the teachings of men (or your understandings) ahead of what God teaches, YOU ARE WRONG.

The witness here on the earth is the Holy Ghost. The Word of God is not. It is here to get us going and for us to develop questions. The core gospel is pretty clear but beyond that one must ask for guidance. So yes, what you stated is correct as I understand it.

It's also why we have so many church's, conflicting doctrines, etc.

[_Tobin]

We are in a position to express our views of the gospel and encourage you to seek the Lord and your own answers from the Lord. This is how we approach the gospel and how all Mormons should. True doctrine comes from God and when you put the teachings of men (or your understandings) ahead of what God teaches, YOU ARE WRONG.

The Mormon church allows you to have whatever doctrinal positions & opinions you would like. When you, however, teach "doctrine" that is contrary to the position of the church, you are in apostasy. You also, as noted in the above quote, when not in a position of authority eg possessing keys, and teaching to others your personal revelations, are in a position of apostasy.

The doctrine of the Church is quite literally that one should seek and speak with God and learn the doctrine from him. That is Mormonism in a nutshell. And it is unforunate that you have not learned this from all the prophets. It is what all true prophets of the Lord teach. You just never understood it very well and for some reason believe that the understanding of men (whether they be a Mormon prophet, Apostle, SP, Bishop and so on) should supercede that. When you base your understanding on anything, but the Lord - you have set your apple cart up for being tipped over.

I am a Mormon because God tells me it is true, as are many posters on here. We absolutely love the Lord and seek and follow him. We will not allow ourselves to be deceived by those who teach against seeking and speaking with and following the Lord. Unfortunately, many on this forum have abandoned this good counsel and taken other paths. We feel sorry for them (and you) and invite you to come back to the Lord and learn from him.

[_SteelHead]

[

The doctrine of the Church is quite literally that one should seek and speak with God and learn the doctrine from him. That is Mormonism in a nutshell. And it is unforunate that you have not learned this from all the prophets. It is what all true prophets of the Lord teach. You just never understood it very well and for some reason believe that the understanding of men (whether they be a Mormon prophet, Apostle, SP, Bishop and so on) should supercede that. When you base your understanding on anything, but the Lord - you have set your apple cart up for being tipped over.

I am a Mormon because God tells me it is true, as are many posters on here. We absolutely love the Lord and seek and follow him. We will not allow ourselves to be deceived by those who teach against seeking and speaking with and following the Lord. Unfortunately, many on this forum have abandoned this good counsel and taken other paths. We feel sorry for them (and you) and invite you to come back to the Lord and learn from him.

Tobin, you may be a Mormon, but by your own words:

It is perfectly clear that BY is off his nut. That's all that is clear. The whole thing is garbage and should just be dismissed by any Mormon. There is no reason a Mormon should explain it any further than that.

you are an apostate Mormon.

[_Tobin]

[

The doctrine of the Church is quite literally that one should seek and speak with God and learn the doctrine from him. That is Mormonism in a nutshell. And it is unforunate that you have not learned this from all the prophets. It is what all true prophets of the Lord teach. You just never understood it very well and for some reason believe that the understanding of men (whether they be a Mormon prophet, Apostle, SP, Bishop and so on) should supercede that. When you base your understanding on anything, but the Lord - you have set your apple cart up for being tipped over.

I am a Mormon because God tells me it is true, as are many posters on here. We absolutely love the Lord and seek and follow him. We will not allow ourselves to be deceived by those who teach against seeking and speaking with and following the Lord. Unfortunately, many on this forum have abandoned this good counsel and taken other paths. We feel sorry for them (and you) and invite you to come back to the Lord and learn from him.

Tobin, you may be a moromon, but by your own words:

It is perfectly clear that BY is off his nut. That's all that is clear. The whole thing is garbage and should just be dismissed by any Mormon. There is no reason a Mormon should explain it any further than that.

you are an apostate Mormon.

Hardly. BY wasn't God, was a man, and often got things VERY wrong. Again, seek the Lord and good counsel from him. You can't be an apostate BY FOLLOWING and doing what the LORD commands. That is absolutely absurd to state otherwise.