Bazooka wrote: Sorry, I should have prefaced my quote by saying "This is the current PR official position of the Church which may, or may not, reflect the current doctrinal official position of the Church."
That sounds about right.
Actually, I was only nearly right. Having thought about it some more it should read: "This is the current PR official position of the Church which may, or may not, reflect the current doctrinal official position of the Church and which may, or may not be reflective of the past or future doctrinal official position of either the Church or it's PR department."
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
It is said that Jesus is God’s son, yet it is also said that Jesus is God. How can one being be both the father and son of iself. And how did God have a human son, or a son that could be seen by humans and interact with humans.
This is a really tricky question, isn’t it! Many Christians have puzzled over this for many years, so it is pretty normal to struggle to understand how the relationship between God and Jesus works. I’m going to try to handle your questions in reverse order if that’s ok.
So the Bible tells us that Jesus isn’t ‘God’s human son’, rather, that Jesus, who is co-eternal with God (that means that like God, he existed forever) became human. Jesus was like God - eternal and perfect - but he became human so that he could enter into our world and die for humans. The Bible treats this as something to marvel at: ... Jesus Christ ‘though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.’ (Philippians 2:6-8) The actual ‘mechanics’ of how God had a human son are not explained to us, but we are left in no doubt that Mary’s conception and pregnancy are miraculous - you could read chapter 1 of the gospel of Luke to see the angel tell Mary that she will fall pregnant. The gospel of John, which is written in very symbolic language at the beginning, speaks about ‘the word becoming flesh’. ‘The word’ is Jesus - who was with God in the beginning - and he became flesh - this is what ‘incarnate’ means - to be made flesh. This makes it clear that Jesus is the eternal God becoming human. So in answer to your second question, it isn’t so much that God had a human son, but that God’s son became human for our sake.
So, to look at the first part of your question, what does it mean for God to have a son? Well, actually, when we say ‘God’ we could almost mean three people - God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit. These three are called ‘the trinity’ and each one is called a ‘person’ of the trinity. It is quite hard to understand how these three work together. Some people find it easier to understand with an analogy - so, for example, God is like water - ice, water and steam are all water but they are all different. The analogy fails at various points but that might be a way to start to get your head around it. So a few things about the trinity that we should keep in mind:
* There is only one God - so even as we talk about the three persons of the trinity we are talking about one God. All three persons of the trinity are God. If you want to look at some verses, you could look at Deuteronomy 6:4, Galatians 1:1, John 1:1-18, and Matthew 28:19.
* There is relationship in the trinity - the Son (Jesus) is obedient to the Father (Luke 22:42); the Holy Spirit is sent by the Father and the Son (John 16:15ff).
So the three persons of the trinity are the same God, but they are each distinct. They have different roles, but each action any member of the trinity might do is God’s action, regardless of who did it.
* We see this distinction / unity when Jesus identifies himself with the Father, saying that he and the Father ‘are one’ (John 10:38, 17:11,21), and that he is in the Father and vice versa (John 14:11). Jesus does not say that he IS the Father, or that he and the Father are the SAME, but that they are ONE. So they are distinct, yet unified. * Because Jesus and the Father are both one and distinct, we can say that God ‘sent his son into the world’ - (John 3:16), and also that Jesus came into the world (1 Tim 1:15) - we are speaking about essentially the same action on the part of God, but on the one hand, God the Father sends, on the other, God the Son comes. *We also see the distinction / unity at work when Jesus speaks about sending the Holy Spirit in John 16 - he describes this as both he and the Father coming (see John 16:23). So the three persons of the trinity are distinct, but they are all God - they all share the same motivations and objectives. They are all co-eternal, they are all perfect.
God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - one God, existing in perfect relationship within himself. This is how God can be both Father and Son - because he just is! It’s a bit unsatisfying - to not wrap our heads around it more - but if we want to have a right idea of who God is and what he is like, it’s necessary to hold these strands together.
I hope this goes some way to answering your question. A really helpful thing to do would be to read John 14-16, where Jesus explains some of this himself. In fact, why not read John from the beginning to get the picture of the whole gospel and how it builds together our picture of the relationship of the Son to the Father, especially as the Son came to earth as a man to reveal the Father to us. These are hard things to understand but well worth the mental effort!
I wish you well in your efforts to understand these great things!
Luke 2: 50 50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. 51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them : but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Notice that Jesus was subject to his parents yet he was there God
Justice = Getting what you deserve Mercy = Not getting what you deserve Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
Luke 2: 50 50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. 51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them : but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Notice that Jesus was subject to his parents yet he was there God
Must have been confusing, what with Jesus being Mary's son but not Josephs, their God and also their literal brother along with Lucifer...
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
Yes Bazooka I agree it must have been very confusing for Joseph.....God took care of that confusion as you will read in the gospels. Since the Christians believe that Christ is NOT a created being,,,,,,he certainly is no literal brother of Lucifer who was created ...Mormons believe this ...
Luke 2: 50 50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. 51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them : but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Notice that Jesus was subject to his parents yet he was there God
Must have been confusing, what with Jesus being Mary's son but not Josephs, their God and also their literal brother along with Lucifer...
The Bible is very clear that only Jesus is a son of God
Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time,Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith,Thy throne, O God,is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Notice how God the Father only calls Jesus his Son, not any angels and required the Angels to Worship Jesus. Something Mormon refuse to do, God the Father also calls Jesus God
Now, it is no secret that many false and vain and foolish things are being taught in the sectarian world and even among us about our need to gain a special relationship with the Lord Jesus. I shall summarize the true doctrine in this field and invite erring teachers and beguiled students to repent and believe the accepted gospel verities as I shall set them forth.
Doctrines of Eternal Life
Let us set forth those doctrines and concepts that a gracious God has given to us in this day and which must be understood in order to gain eternal life. They are:
1. We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.
Justice = Getting what you deserve Mercy = Not getting what you deserve Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
Mittens wrote:The Bible is very clear that only Jesus is a son of God
Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time,Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?
And this is a quotation of a psalm directed at the ancient king of Israel.
Mittens wrote:And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And this is a mistranslated quotation of Deut 32:43 (4QDeut-q; cf. Ps 97:7), which is a call to the gods ("sons of God," or "gods") to worship God, not Jesus.
Mittens wrote:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith,Thy throne, O God,is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Another quotation of a psalm directed explicitly at the king of Israel (Ps 45:1). This is not a reference to Jesus, but to David.
Mittens wrote:Notice how God the Father only calls Jesus his Son, not any angels
Completely untrue. The Greek translation of Deut 32:43 (from which Heb 1:7 gets its quotation) places the "sons of God" and the "angels of God" parallel to each other. They refer to the same beings. The Hebrew "sons of God" were understood to be angels in the Greco-Roman period. I published a paper on this a few years ago (see here).
Mittens wrote:and required the Angels to Worship Jesus. Something Mormon refuse to do, God the Father also calls Jesus God
Now, it is no secret that many false and vain and foolish things are being taught in the sectarian world and even among us about our need to gain a special relationship with the Lord Jesus. I shall summarize the true doctrine in this field and invite erring teachers and beguiled students to repent and believe the accepted gospel verities as I shall set them forth.
Doctrines of Eternal Life
Let us set forth those doctrines and concepts that a gracious God has given to us in this day and which must be understood in order to gain eternal life. They are:
1. We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.
None of these quotes are referring to David, you make the same mistake a bling guide does here on another passage in Psalms that he says refers to David
Status of King David Question: "Some time ago the question came up as to the standing of King David because of his sin as pertaining to Uriah. Because we understand there is no forgiveness for murder some of the class felt he lost his priesthood and retrogressed from the time of this incident. Others felt that inasmuch as David repented and abhorred his sin and indicated his sorrow, that he did not lose his priesthood. Would you please enlighten us? What is the teaching of the Church on this point? What is his status?"
Answer: David sorely repented all his life, but his sin was so great that he lost everything and the Prophet Joseph Smith has given us this information. Speaking of the Jews whom Peter addressed as recorded in the third chapter of Acts, they could not receive forgiveness for their sins, although they repented, until Christ comes, and the same is true of David. These are the words of the Prophet to the Jews:
A murderer, for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness. David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but he could only get it through hell; he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell.
Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fulness of the priesthood; and the priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage.
. . . "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing (redemption) shall come from the presence of the Lord, and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you," &c. (Acts 3:19-21.) The time of redemption here had reference to the time when Christ should come; then and not till then, would their sins be blotted out. Why? Because they were murderers, and no murderer hath eternal life. Even David must wait for those times of refreshing, before he can come forth and his sins be blotted out. For Peter, speaking of him says, "David hath not yet ascended into heaven, for his sepulchre is with us to this day." (Acts 2:29.) His remains were then in the tomb. Now, we read that many bodies of the Saints arose at Christ's resurrection, probably all the Saints, but it seems that David did not. (Matthew 27:52-53.) Why? Because he had been a murderer. . . . (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 239, 188.)
However in acts 2:
25 “King David quoted Jesus as saying: ‘I know the Lord is always with me. He is helping me. God’s mighty power supports me. 26 ’No wonder my heart is filled with joy and my tongue shouts his praises! For I know all will be well with me in death— 27 ’You will not leave my soul in hell or let the body of your Holy Son decay. 28 ’You will give me back my life and give me wonderful joy in your presence.’ 29 [b]“Dear brothers, think! David wasn’t referring to himself when he spoke these words I have quoted [/b], for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us. 30 But he was a prophet, and knew God had promised with an unbreakable oath that one of David’s own descendants would be the Messiah and£ sit on David’s throne. 31David was looking far into the future and predicting the Messiah’s resurrection, and saying that the Messiah’s soul would not be left in hell and his body would not decay. 32 He was speaking of Jesus, and we all are witnesses that Jesus rose from the dead. 33 “And now he sits on the throne of highest honor in heaven, next to God. And just as promised, the Father gave him the authority to send the Holy Spirit—with the results you are seeing and hearing today. 34 “No, David was not speaking of himself in these words of his I have quoted, for he never ascended into the skies. Moreover, he further stated, ‘God spoke to my Lord, the Messiah, and said to him, Sit here in honor beside me 35until I bring your enemies into complete subjection.’
Acts 13:34 “For God had promised to bring him back to life again, no more to die. This is stated in the Scripture that says, ‘I will do for you the wonderful thing I promised David.’ 35 In another Psalm he explained more fully, saying, ‘God will not let his Holy One decay.’ 36 This was not a reference to David , for after David had served his generation according to the will of God, he died and was buried, and his body decayed. 37 No, it was a reference to another—someone God brought back to life, whose body was not touched at all by the ravages of death.
In Mormon Doctrine we have the answer that it wasn't David in Psa 16:8 under Corruption Corruption is also used to signify the decay and change that will take place after death. Thus David recorded the Lord's promise that he would not suffer his Holy One to see corruption (Ps. 16:10), a promise amply fulfilled in Christ as both Peter (Acts 2:27) and Paul (Acts 13:30-37) testified.
3. The term is further used with reference to the wicked, depraved, and dissolute acts of those who are steeped in iniquity. "He that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting," Paul says (Gal. 6:8); and it is by thus sowing to the Spirit that the saints have "escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Pet. 1:4.)
• Acts 13:22 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
• 2 Timothy 2:8 8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Justice = Getting what you deserve Mercy = Not getting what you deserve Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
Mittens wrote:None of these quotes are referring to David,
That's a great assertion, but what you have to do now is provide evidence of this. For instance, Psalm 45:6-7, the source for the quote in Heb 1:5, states in the first verse that it will speak about the king. It then calls the king "God" in the vocative and immediately refers to "God's" God. If the first God is not David, it certainly shouldn't be Christ. You would have to accept that Jesus is a separate God whose own God is the Father. Problem.
Mittens wrote:you make the same mistake a bling guide does here on another passage in Psalms that he says refers to David
Status of King David Question: "Some time ago the question came up as to the standing of King David because of his sin as pertaining to Uriah. Because we understand there is no forgiveness for murder some of the class felt he lost his priesthood and retrogressed from the time of this incident. Others felt that inasmuch as David repented and abhorred his sin and indicated his sorrow, that he did not lose his priesthood. Would you please enlighten us? What is the teaching of the Church on this point? What is his status?"
Answer: David sorely repented all his life, but his sin was so great that he lost everything and the Prophet Joseph Smith has given us this information. Speaking of the Jews whom Peter addressed as recorded in the third chapter of Acts, they could not receive forgiveness for their sins, although they repented, until Christ comes, and the same is true of David. These are the words of the Prophet to the Jews:
A murderer, for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness. David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but he could only get it through hell; he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell.
Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fulness of the priesthood; and the priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage.
. . . "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing (redemption) shall come from the presence of the Lord, and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you," &c. (Acts 3:19-21.) The time of redemption here had reference to the time when Christ should come; then and not till then, would their sins be blotted out. Why? Because they were murderers, and no murderer hath eternal life. Even David must wait for those times of refreshing, before he can come forth and his sins be blotted out. For Peter, speaking of him says, "David hath not yet ascended into heaven, for his sepulchre is with us to this day." (Acts 2:29.) His remains were then in the tomb. Now, we read that many bodies of the Saints arose at Christ's resurrection, probably all the Saints, but it seems that David did not. (Matthew 27:52-53.) Why? Because he had been a murderer. . . . (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 239, 188.)
However in acts 2:
25 “King David quoted Jesus as saying: ‘I know the Lord is always with me. He is helping me. God’s mighty power supports me. 26 ’No wonder my heart is filled with joy and my tongue shouts his praises! For I know all will be well with me in death— 27 ’You will not leave my soul in hell or let the body of your Holy Son decay. 28 ’You will give me back my life and give me wonderful joy in your presence.’ 29 [b]“Dear brothers, think! David wasn’t referring to himself when he spoke these words I have quoted [/b], for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us. 30 But he was a prophet, and knew God had promised with an unbreakable oath that one of David’s own descendants would be the Messiah and£ sit on David’s throne. 31David was looking far into the future and predicting the Messiah’s resurrection, and saying that the Messiah’s soul would not be left in hell and his body would not decay. 32 He was speaking of Jesus, and we all are witnesses that Jesus rose from the dead. 33 “And now he sits on the throne of highest honor in heaven, next to God. And just as promised, the Father gave him the authority to send the Holy Spirit—with the results you are seeing and hearing today. 34 “No, David was not speaking of himself in these words of his I have quoted, for he never ascended into the skies. Moreover, he further stated, ‘God spoke to my Lord, the Messiah, and said to him, Sit here in honor beside me 35until I bring your enemies into complete subjection.’
Uh, that's not Acts 2:25-34. Where on earth did you get that?
Mittens wrote:Acts 13:34 “For God had promised to bring him back to life again, no more to die. This is stated in the Scripture that says, ‘I will do for you the wonderful thing I promised David.’ 35 In another Psalm he explained more fully, saying, ‘God will not let his Holy One decay.’ 36 This was not a reference to David , for after David had served his generation according to the will of God, he died and was buried, and his body decayed. 37 No, it was a reference to another—someone God brought back to life, whose body was not touched at all by the ravages of death.
Seriously, where on earth did this translation come from? It adds a bunch of stuff that simply does not exist in the text.
Mittens wrote:In Mormon Doctrine we have the answer that it wasn't David in Psa 16:8 under Corruption Corruption is also used to signify the decay and change that will take place after death. Thus David recorded the Lord's promise that he would not suffer his Holy One to see corruption (Ps. 16:10), a promise amply fulfilled in Christ as both Peter (Acts 2:27) and Paul (Acts 13:30-37) testified.
3. The term is further used with reference to the wicked, depraved, and dissolute acts of those who are steeped in iniquity. "He that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting," Paul says (Gal. 6:8); and it is by thus sowing to the Spirit that the saints have "escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Pet. 1:4.)
I'm not really interested in McConkie's exegesis.
Mittens wrote:• Acts 13:22 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
• 2 Timothy 2:8 8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
What a convoluted mess. What on earth are you trying to argue, and where on earth did you get that translation?