Is God changing?

[_Tobin]

I don't define myself as this body. I am the spirit inside of this body. I guess we just look at things differently.

But you are very connected to that body. If it dies, you go bye-bye. Even you don't know if you'll continue to exist if that happens.

[_Franktalk]

I don't define myself as this body. I am the spirit inside of this body. I guess we just look at things differently.

But you are very connected to that body. If it dies, you go bye-bye. Even you don't know if you'll continue to exist if that happens.

It is what it is Tobin. I prefer to think that this existence is but a small part of reality. The things I see around me talk to me about a greater existence. You may not feel that way.

[_Tobin]

It is what it is Tobin. I prefer to think that this existence is but a small part of reality. The things I see around me talk to me about a greater existence. You may not feel that way.

I look at our meager technological progress and try imagine what beings millions and billions years ahead of us are capable of. If these beings are here and are interested in preserving who and what you are, then you'll continue to exist. If these beings aren't here (or don't deem you worth saving), then you'll disappear Franktalk. There is nothing you can do about it and you won't know till after you die.

[_Franktalk]

It is what it is Tobin. I prefer to think that this existence is but a small part of reality. The things I see around me talk to me about a greater existence. You may not feel that way.

I look at our meager technological progress and try imagine what beings millions and billions years ahead of us are capable of. If these beings are here and are interested in preserving who and what you are, then you'll continue to exist. If these beings aren't here (or don't deem you worth saving), then you'll disappear Franktalk. There is nothing you can do about it and you won't know till after you die.

Imagine that you have a dream and it takes a whole lifetime to finish. Then you wake up. What you did in the dream is but a memory but it still can effect what you do once you wake up. When we die we wake up as our greater self. We ponder our mortal life we had and then seek another life so we can gather more experience. You see in this world we can be what ever we want. We can do what ever we want. We are not bound by rules that make life heaven. We break the rules and see what happens. We learn that the rules in heaven are true and must be there. But in our mortal life we learn firsthand the consequences of our actions if we would break a rule in heaven.

[_Tobin]

Imagine that you have a dream and it takes a whole lifetime to finish. Then you wake up. What you did in the dream is but a memory but it still can effect what you do once you wake up. When we die we wake up as our greater self. We ponder our mortal life we had and then seek another life so we can gather more experience. You see in this world we can be what ever we want. We can do what ever we want. We are not bound by rules that make life heaven. We break the rules and see what happens. We learn that the rules in heaven are true and must be there. But in our mortal life we learn firsthand the consequences of our actions if we would break a rule in heaven.

I seriously doubt that reality is just a dream despite René Descartes argument that it may be. But let's suppose you are right. If reality is a dream, then there is nothing to learn here. Reality is pointless and whatever we fancifully imagine is possible. And there are certainly no rules here since it is just a dream. So I think claiming reality is a dream contradicts everything you claim latter on.

My question to you is if you really believe that reality is a dream, then why don't you just kill yourself to wake up? Wouldn't you be better off?

[_Franktalk]

I seriously doubt that reality is just a dream despite René Descartes argument that it may be. But let's suppose you are right. If reality is a dream, then there is nothing to learn here. Reality is pointless and whatever we fancifully imagine is possible. And there are certainly no rules here since it is just a dream. So I think claiming reality is a dream contradicts everything you claim latter on.

My question to you is if you really believe that reality is a dream, then why don't you just kill yourself to wake up? Wouldn't you be better off?

That makes no sense at all. We choose to come here why not make the best of it. Memories do matter. I see reality from the viewpoint of the greater reality. It seems you are stuck here for some reason. I think Christ gave us clues about the mortal experience.

Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

We go out from heaven over and over in a mortal body. But a day comes in which we get a resurrected body. We still come here but we don't die and we don't experience pain. It is all part of the progression, an unfolding plan so we may have joy on earth and joy in heaven. Remember what it says in the Book of Mormon?

2Nephi 2

11 For it must needs be, that there
is an opposition in all things. If not
so, my firstborn in the wilderness,
righteousness could not be brought
to pass, neither wickedness, neither
holiness nor misery, neither
good nor bad. Wherefore, all things
must needs be a compound in one;
wherefore, if it should be one body
it must needs remain as dead, having
no life neither death, nor corruption
nor incorruption, happiness nor misery,
neither sense nor insensibility.

[_jo1952]

I seriously doubt that reality is just a dream despite René Descartes argument that it may be. But let's suppose you are right. If reality is a dream, then there is nothing to learn here. Reality is pointless and whatever we fancifully imagine is possible. And there are certainly no rules here since it is just a dream. So I think claiming reality is a dream contradicts everything you claim latter on.

Eternal beings would have already had the ability to experience everything there is to be experienced. They would know everything there is to know; have created everything that can be created. They would have all knowledge--all intelligence. (The glory of "god" is intelligence.) Consider that plain of existence as an estate. Boredom would be a problem. So, in order to maintain happiness, they would need to create some way to experience newness. Certainly, with all knowledge and intelligence, they would have the ability to create complex layers of reality/existence in order to be able to experience newness. Those other layers of existence would also be called estates. (According to Joseph, there are three.) When participating in an experience of newness, we actually can exist in all three of those estates at the same time. The "lesser" estates having no knowledge of the "higher" estates.

In the original Endowment, Joseph portrayed Michael going to sleep and waking up as a mortal Adam. At the end of the play, Michael woke up from that dream....having never actually experienced death. He has been dreaming his existence as Adam; but never stopped existing as Michael.

The only way to be able to experience newness would be if the newly created self within a different estate has no knowledge of what is really going on. It would have no knowledge of its true self. Otherwise, the purpose for creating newness would be defeated.

Eternal beings would also have permanent free will; they can do whatever they want. Yet, they would have been able to figure out how to co-exist with other eternal beings. After all, they have all knowledge and all intelligence; and they have always existed....without beginning and without end.

[_Tobin]

I seriously doubt that reality is just a dream despite René Descartes argument that it may be. But let's suppose you are right. If reality is a dream, then there is nothing to learn here. Reality is pointless and whatever we fancifully imagine is possible. And there are certainly no rules here since it is just a dream. So I think claiming reality is a dream contradicts everything you claim latter on.

My question to you is if you really believe that reality is a dream, then why don't you just kill yourself to wake up? Wouldn't you be better off?

That makes no sense at all. We choose to come here why not make the best of it. Memories do matter. I see reality from the viewpoint of the greater reality. It seems you are stuck here for some reason. I think Christ gave us clues about the mortal experience.

You keep saying that, but how do you know you chose to come here? I don't remember living before. Do you? I don't remember choosing to come here, do you? And you claim memories matter, but if memories can be wiped so easily of a lifetime before this, then it would seem MEMORIES DON'T MATTER. Nor do our experiences matter. After all, if we lived before we don't have those memories or experience to draw upon. Franktalk, you have to admit you contradict yourself a lot.

Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

You can quote the Bible at me all day long, it doesn't matter. The entire book could be made up and is completely meaningless. Why should we believe the claims made in the Bible or Book of Mormon? How do we know that God said any of these things in either of those books (or the plethora of other religious books that exist like the Quran)?

We go out from heaven over and over in a mortal body. But a day comes in which we get a resurrected body. We still come here but we don't die and we don't experience pain. It is all part of the progression, an unfolding plan so we may have joy on earth and joy in heaven. Remember what it says in the Book of Mormon?

How do you know we've ever been the heaven before? I don't remember it. Do you remember it? How do you know we use mortal bodies to escape heaven and even if we do, why? And why be resurrected at all? It would seem to be pointless if as you claim we relive lives (forgeting the lives before) to remain happy since eternal beings know everything?

And I'm not trying to antagonize you Franktalk. I'm just trying to get you to think about and question what you think you know. My view is at this point in our development, we really have NO IDEA what happened before this life. And People that claim they do are lying. And we have NO IDEA what, or if it will happen after this life. All I can believe is we'll find out if we continue to exist after we die. I think having preconceptions about it is silly.

[_Tobin]

Eternal beings would have already had the ability to experience everything there is to be experienced. They would know everything there is to know; have created everything that can be created. They would have all knowledge--all intelligence. (The glory of "god" is intelligence.) Consider that plain of existence as an estate. Boredom would be a problem. So, in order to maintain happiness, they would need to create some way to experience newness. Certainly, with all knowledge and intelligence, they would have the ability to create complex layers of reality/existence in order to be able to experience newness. Those other layers of existence would also be called estates. (According to Joseph, there are three.) When participating in an experience of newness, we actually can exist in all three of those estates at the same time. The "lesser" estates having no knowledge of the "higher" estates.

In the original Endowment, Joseph portrayed Michael going to sleep and waking up as a mortal Adam. At the end of the play, Michael woke up from that dream....having never actually experienced death. He has been dreaming his existence as Adam; but never stopped existing as Michael.

The only way to be able to experience newness would be if the newly created self within a different estate has no knowledge of what is really going on. It would have no knowledge of its true self. Otherwise, the purpose for creating newness would be defeated.

Eternal beings would also have permanent free will; they can do whatever they want. Yet, they would have been able to figure out how to co-exist with other eternal beings. After all, they have all knowledge and all intelligence; and they have always existed....without beginning and without end.

Jo,

What is an eternal being in your mind? Are we fully formed eternal beings like God or nascent (children or offspring)? I'd be interested in which you think we are. I think if we are the latter, then it would seem that we wouldn't know everything. After all, is a child nearly as knowledgeable as their parents?

[_jo1952]

Jo,

What is an eternal being in your mind? Are we fully formed eternal beings like God or nascent (children or offspring)? I'd be interested in which you think we are. I think if we are the latter, then it would seem that we wouldn't know everything. After all, is a child nearly as knowledgeable as their parents?

Tobin,

An eternal being has always existed. While our mortal brains are limited in comprehending, we just can't get our heads wrapped around what it looks like to have always been. It just doesn't make sense that we only become eternal AFTER death..at which time we enter eternity. We are either eternal or not.

Yes, we are fully formed eternal beings..."God", if you will; but not the avatar that is in mortality. The idea of "God" is a concept we have imagined from inside of mortality. As eternal beings we have already experienced everything there is to experience....we've done everything there is to do....we know everything there is to know. Us, inside of mortality, are merely extensions of our true self....experiencing mortality inside of an avatar. The mortal brain is connected to our true self's brain. It is inside of the brain that we actually gain experience. We are the "Father", the "Mother", the "child"...depending upon what we want to experience inside of the estates we have created outside of our most advanced and most real plain/estate of existence. Within those created estates are rules and laws which must be followed in order for the best experience of our free will desires. These other estates are real for all intents and purposes to the avatar; thus allowing our most high real true self to be able to experience newness through our created avatar. So it is that we create worlds without end in which to experience newness; those worlds not interfering with where our highest self actually has always existed.

The avatar can learn and experience things it has never experienced before. The highest true self gets to experience newness through its newly created avatar. It is the avatar that gets to make the choices; as such, the highest true self doesn't know in advance what those choices are going to be.

As our technology continues to advance, though not nearly able to duplicate the creation of a world/solar system/ etc., we can now begin to imagine more and more the type of knowledge and intelligence it takes to create worlds. When we tire of an estate, we simply stop participating inside of it. However, the upper and eternal plain of our existence never changes; it is the same yesterday, today and forever more.