Homosexuality from a Non-Religious perspective

[Guest]

See other post with same title.

[_JAK]

A major objective of the Mormon organization is to transfer wealth to the Mormon church.

Wait a dang second. IT's A NOT-FOR-PROFIT organization!!! There are no stockholders reaping benefits!!! And your telling me no money goes back down??? New Churches, free weddings, charity work.

Please.. Don't create evil where there is none.

JMS

jskains stated:
Wait a dang second. IT's A NOT-FOR-PROFIT organization!!! There are no stockholders reaping benefits!!! And your telling me no money goes back down??? New Churches, free weddings, charity work.

You are correct that there are no “stockholders” in the same sense as the illustrations I gave. However, if you think the LDS is not out for profit and the transfer of wealth from the members to the organization, you are badly misinformed.

There are those at the general top of the LDS who have salaries and incomes which are not published for the masses to read. There is enormous profit in the Mormon Church. It owns large holdings in realestate.

See these news stories:

Time Magazine

The Great Mormon Money Machine

New York Times

Read the entire article not just the introduction on the opening page.

Bush and the Mormons

In that article read:
“Mormons are clearly not evangelical Christians. And there are 11 million of them. They run the "biggest and best" gun shows nationwide. They tend to vote Republican. And their church is rich, because it asks its members to tithe 10% of their annual income.”
(Bold emphasis is mine.)


Mormon Tithing

Church Can’t Hide Its Worth The Oregonian

Ordered to Disclose Financial Records

From this article:

I've never understood the reasoning behind keeping the church's financial records so secret. I've seen estimates that the net worth of the church is between $25 and $30 billion - that's a lot of money! If the church is asking us to donate 10% of our income, I believe that we should be given more than the "everything looks good" financial report each year in April. On the other hand, I don't really see what good it will do for us to know.

On the other hand, I can certainly see in this case why the church wouldn't want to disclose its financial status. The dude wants $45 million dollars because a member of the church molested him. I guess the church is responsible because they knew each other through the church. Anyway, the guy who did the molesting obviously doesn't have this kind of money, so the lawyers goes after the deep pockets. $45 million is a lot, but a church that has "$30 billion" in the bank can handle it...

What disgusts me about this whole situation is that this $45 million is coming from the pockets of millions of church members who work hard and give what they can to a cause that they support. It is money that I and others worked hard for and then turned over to the church so that it could further the Lord's work. The courts, if they grant the $45 million, are taking money donated by the poor, the widows, and yes, the rich also, and making someone else rich to "ease their pain."


So you can see, jskains, the Mormon church is clearly about transferring wealth from individuals to the organization.

No “stockholders.” That’s correct in the sense of the traded stocks on the exchanges. However, there is not the slightest doubt or question that the Mormon hierarchy reaches as deep in to the pockets of its members as it possibly can.

You are poorly informed regarding the financial dealings and interest of the Mormon organization.

JAK

[_JAK]

What are you even saying? I said that not everyone in america considers religion a myth. If 78% of people claim to be religious, then that is 78% of people that apparently bought into it and didn't consider it a myth... I think your going down an odd path that leads to nowhere.

JMS

What I'm saying is the only thing you can say with impunity is that 78% of Americans consider themselves to be religious. That's all. You have no foundation to state that you know what they believe about anything, including what they consider myth and what they don't consider myth.

Heck, that 78% can't even agree about homosexuality!

Regardless of the percentages here, harmony, the fact remains that we have more than 1,000 denominations, sects, and cults all of which regard themselves as Christian. The fact that they disagree is ample evidence that they lack reliability.

Your analysis is correct that jskains likely has no idea what these many groups believe (their doctrines and dogmas).

Further, there are studies which show many people are faking religion. That is, they may go to a church; they may participate in social functions; they may even contribute money. But some of these people are skeptical regarding various doctrines of the churches they attend.

They have other reasons for being affiliated with those churches. In some respects a church is a country club for those too poor to belong to THE Country Club.

There are many Mormons who are skeptical of various doctrines in that organization. In fact, as you likely know well, there have been many doctrinal shifts in the Mormon organization from its early beginnings less than 200 years ago. I need not list them.

You are also correct that there is wide-spread disagreement regarding homosexuality in religious circles. There is not much disagreement among psychologists and psychiatrists, however.

Religious organizations are stuck, if you will, with the problem of how to address and treat homosexuals and homosexuality generally. The Roman Catholic Church has an official position which is by no means followed by the priests in the RCC. Thus far the RCC has paid out hundreds of millions in sex abuse cases largely homosexual.

Roman Catholic payout

Religion in any form is about mythology. It’s about declaring truth by assertion. Such declaration is mythology. It’s not researched, informed, educated conclusion based on the accumulation of evidence.

The latter is science and how science reaches tentative conclusions about what it discoveries.

Any present-day religious myths are connected culturally, and through civilization(s) to the past – the distant past in which people (men) constructed stories which they and others perpetuated as truth.

All the present-day religions rely on myth.
Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, etc. each rely on mythology. And while there is enormous disagreement in Christianity, there is also great disagreement in other religions as well.

For example: Some Muslims are most peaceful and peace loving. They want to live in peace and practice their religion privately. Other Muslims have a different interpretation of the religion and are intent on violent activities directed against others AND against other Muslims who disagree with them.

In the Western World today, most Christians don’t set about attempting to literally kill one another. They DO, however, compete for membership and power and influence – particularly influence with political candidates seeking public office.

JAK

[_jskains]

"Your analysis is correct that jskains likely has no idea what these many groups believe (their doctrines and dogmas)."

And I doubt YOU know either... So why the personal comment? That looked silly.

JMS

[_JAK]

"Your analysis is correct that jskains likely has no idea what these many groups believe (their doctrines and dogmas)."

And I doubt YOU know either... So why the personal comment? That looked silly.

JMS

My comments to harmony were all a response to what harmony had stated.

We only know what a post on the screen says and what it implies about the one making the post. The breadth of Christian diversity is such that absent an applied intellectual study which is comprehensive, one cannot know the history of an ancient religious mythology.

Previously, in another post, I suggested to you, jskains, some sources of information. Let me suggest others for perspective.

Largest denominational families in U.S., 2001

Scroll down to find the section which I have listed as the title here.

Top 10 Religious Bodies with Most Churches in the U.S., 1990

You also may need to scroll down to find this category and the listings.

How Many Protestant Denominations Are There?

List of Christian denominations by number of members

These weblinks should give you some idea regarding the degree to which Christianity is a highly fractured religion. The time frame is such that there have been many schisms and splits or start-ups of various kinds throughout the history of the religion.

JAK

[_JAK]

"Your analysis is correct that jskains likely has no idea what these many groups believe (their doctrines and dogmas)."

And I doubt YOU know either... So why the personal comment? That looked silly.

JMS

Suppose you re-read my post (Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:32 am) and forget the single line you quote. What in that post do you find incorrect?

It would read like this:

Regardless of the percentages here, harmony, the fact remains that we have more than 1,000 denominations, sects, and cults all of which regard themselves as Christian. The fact that they disagree is ample evidence that they lack reliability.

Further, there are studies which show many people are faking religion. That is, they may go to a church; they may participate in social functions; they may even contribute money. But some of these people are skeptical regarding various doctrines of the churches they attend.

They have other reasons for being affiliated with those churches. In some respects a church is a country club for those too poor to belong to THE Country Club.

There are many Mormons who are skeptical of various doctrines in that organization. In fact, as you likely know well, there have been many doctrinal shifts in the Mormon organization from its early beginnings less than 200 years ago. I need not list them.

You are also correct that there is wide-spread disagreement regarding homosexuality in religious circles. There is not much disagreement among psychologists and psychiatrists, however.

Religious organizations are stuck, if you will, with the problem of how to address and treat homosexuals and homosexuality generally. The Roman Catholic Church has an official position which is by no means followed by the priests in the RCC. Thus far the RCC has paid out hundreds of millions in sex abuse cases largely homosexual.

Roman Catholic payout

Religion in any form is about mythology. It’s about declaring truth by assertion. Such declaration is mythology. It’s not researched, informed, educated conclusion based on the accumulation of evidence.

The latter is science and how science reaches tentative conclusions about what it discoveries.

Any present-day religious myths are connected culturally, and through civilization(s) to the past – the distant past in which people (men) constructed stories which they and others perpetuated as truth.

All the present-day religions rely on myth.
Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, etc. each rely on mythology. And while there is enormous disagreement in Christianity, there is also great disagreement in other religions as well.

For example: Some Muslims are most peaceful and peace loving. They want to live in peace and practice their religion privately. Other Muslims have a different interpretation of the religion and are intent on violent activities directed against others AND against other Muslims who disagree with them.

In the Western World today, most Christians don’t set about attempting to literally kill one another. They DO, however, compete for membership and power and influence – particularly influence with political candidates seeking public office.

JAK

[_cemab4y]

Sexuality is like personality. There are many different causative factors for sexual orientation. The American Psychiatric Association, wisely removed homosexuality from its list of disorders. Being gay is not "sick", it is not an illness to be treated or cured.

Considering our past history of being the only religious group to be under an extermination order, and the history of prejudice and bigotry against Mormons, I think Mormons should be taking the lead in removing prejudice and discrimination against Gays.

These people are God's people. We practice eternal marriage, we should be support of marriage between people who love each other. We should help, aid, and assist all people, all members of the human family, regardless of the way they love one another.

[_JAK]

Sexuality is like personality. There are many different causative factors for sexual orientation. The American Psychiatric Association, wisely removed homosexuality from its list of disorders. Being gay is not "sick", it is not an illness to be treated or cured.

Considering our past history of being the only religious group to be under an extermination order, and the history of prejudice and bigotry against Mormons, I think Mormons should be taking the lead in removing prejudice and discrimination against Gays.

These people are God's people. We practice eternal marriage, we should be support of marriage between people who love each other. We should help, aid, and assist all people, all members of the human family, regardless of the way they love one another.

Greetings cemab4y,

Your first paragraph is a good statement on the issue.

Your second is a proposal that is most unlikely. Religious groups do not take the lead in much of anything. Religion and religious dogma follows behind information when it becomes abundantly clear that the religious dogma/doctrine is wrong. So your proposal for Mormons (or for any religious group) is not realistic.

I know of no crack in Mormon doctrine that would place it in any position to mitigate “prejudice” on this issue.

As for “God’s people,” that’s religious doctrine. Attempting to keep some religious doctrine while throwing other religious doctrine out is also unlikely. Religion follows generally with a very long time lag after information and documentation demonstrate that religions are unreliable.

JAK

[_RAJ]

JAK wrote:

"I know of no crack in Mormon doctrine that would place it in any position to mitigate “prejudice” on this issue."


JAK,

There does exist such a “crack.” The Mormon belief in continuing revelation could provide a means to shift position re: homosexuality, even dramatically shift it. But I agree, this is most unlikely.

Still, smaller, more incremental changes have occurred and are occurring right now. They are the result, however, as you suggest, of Mormon leadership following once their positions have been shown to be untenable.

[_JAK]

JAK wrote:

"I know of no crack in Mormon doctrine that would place it in any position to mitigate “prejudice” on this issue."


JAK,

There does exist such a “crack.” The Mormon belief in continuing revelation could provide a means to shift position re: homosexuality, even dramatically shift it. But I agree, this is most unlikely.

Still, smaller, more incremental changes have occurred and are occurring right now. They are the result, however, as you suggest, of Mormon leadership following once their positions have been shown to be untenable.

One cannot turn an ocean liner around on a dime. The metaphor I intend to apply to religious dogma. The larger the religious organization, the longer it takes to change its dogma.

Be fruitful and multiply is still a mantra of the Roman Catholic Church. That, in spite of the evidence that 6 billion humans and rising is a clear, documented fact that too many humans threaten the planet earth as a friendly place for humans themselves.

Underdeveloped countries want all the benefits of electricity, oil, and natural gas which the USA enjoys. They cannot have it. When the world’s population was less than one billion, that doctrine appeared to make sense while also the doctrine of the RCC. Today, having as many children as possible is socially and environmentally irresponsible. Yet, the doctrine of the RCC remains officially opposed to family planning which utilizes science (artificial birth control) to limit the size of a family.

Date: 10-02-2000 19:30


1 Billion humans = 1830

2 Billion humans = 1925

3 Billion humans = 1960

4 Billion humans = 1975

5 Billion humans = 1988

6 Billion humans = 1999


JAK