Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

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_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

karl61 wrote:I'm curious - this paper that is coming out. Is there any where in the paper that mentions the new testament or old testament as a source for the Book of Mormon. Are those words (new testament and old testament) in the paper.



The only mention of the Old Testament is the writins of Isaiah and Malachi which are quoted in the Book of Mormon. There is no mention of the New Testament as a source for the Book of Mormon.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

My time has been limited, but I want to make some comments here, first to the e-mail that Noel copied here for us.
That said, all authorship problems are ultimately closed set problems. You cannot test for every single person in the entire history of the world. Instead, you have some candidates and wish to figure out which among them is the most likely culprit.

I want to address this point first. Matt would do very well if he were to pick up some material and read it on the nature of attributing authorship - that is outside the fairly narrow component that is computer assisted questions of stylometry. A very good place to start would be Harold Love's Attributing Authorship: An Introduction which can be purchased quite reasonably (less than $10.00) in the paperback edition. Of course you cannot test everyone. You could though, quite feasibly, test everyone that you had significant (and confidant) samples of their writings. Isn't that the point of computer assisted studies? Contrary to a lot of the assertions that were made in the original paper, comparisons are much more likely to tell you who could not have been the author than they are to tell you who could have been (and this is good because, of course, generally speaking, at most only one of the proposed authors can usually be the real author of the disputed text, while all of the proposed authors may not be). False positives in these kinds of cases are much more frequent than false negatives. Of course, the method that Criddle originally used would have had to have been modified when adding more authors (the way the vocabulary was chosen was problematic - a single author who didn't use a particular word would eliminate that word from the entire study). As Bruce points out though, testing for simply "some" will always create very misleading results.

One of the interesting things that has occurred in the discussions over the Spalding theory in this and other forums has been a problem that stems from this kind of assumption. Dale, for example, has repeatedly said that his analysis shows similarities that are startlingly close. However, I found the same kind of similarities between the Book of Mormon and other authors - Dale had created a kind of index number, and his index results for individual chapters he suggested was very high. I took another author for comparison, used Dale's same index process, and came back with even better results.

Likewise, I was presented with the startling list of so many consecutive parallels. Where could I find a similar list? In fact, Roger (I am pretty sure it was Roger) suggested that I find two consecutive chapters in the Book of Mormon and any two consecutive chapters in Jules Verne's Around the World in 80 Days and show a similar list. I did (although I admit, my list was longer).

When talking about parallels, for example, as Love notes (in the book I referenced above), we run into this issue - he notes: "Once we have encountered an unusual expression in the writings of three of four different authors it ceases to have any value for attribution". But, if you only ever look at a small handful of works, every phrase becomes unusual. Presumably, had Criddle used a thousand authors instead of his carefully selected set, the authorship picture would have been completely different. And this would have told him something about his suspicions that he presents early in the paper.

Ben McGuire
_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

MCB writes:
Bruce's work ignores all of the work previous, which links Rigdon and Spalding to the Book of Mormon.

Part of the issue MCB is that questions of stylometry are entirely internal. That is, the entire body of work you refer to is of no evidentiary value in a question of stylometry. It is only natural to ignore it in this situation. It is, in fact, one of the reasons why stylometry as a statistical problem is considered to be of value in questions of authorship attribution.
It is a hallmark of Mormon apologist thinking, focusing on the individual leaves of the tree and ignoring the forest, perhaps hoping that others don't know that a forest exists.
My general experience has been quite different. Most of the critics (yourself among them) grab on to an argument without actually understanding the argument that is being made.
The only problem I have with the Jockers et al study is Rigdon's word-print, and the effects of KJE. I am working on a solution to that problem.
Good luck with that ....

Ben McGuire
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _MCB »

It is sort of like presenting parents with the rough medical history of their child's first months, and slow achievement of developmental milestones, low achievement in school, poor speech and language development, low IQ test scores, with few relative strengths, poor adaptive behavior, and saying "Your child is intellectually handicapped/developmentally delayed."

The parent cries, "My child is NOT retarded!!!"

The understanding school psychologist then responds, "I don't know for sure what the future holds, but that is how he has functioned in the past, and how he is functioning now. He needs special education services tailored to his individual needs in order to make the best use of what he has. The label qualifies him for services."

The parent responds, "I suppose so. But I want to make sure that people don't limit him because he is receiving help with that label."

The school psychologist thinks, "Oh, crap, I can't make that promise in this district." And says, "We will do our best." with fingers crossed in hope.

I understand your grief. The Book of Mormon may be fiction. It is not a historical document in the way you read it. However, it contains some good messages, if you choose to read it with ethical filters on your mind.

I consider the Jockers et al study to be better than some psychometrics, that I refer to as yardsticks with foot markings. There are some muddy parts, which probably have to do with Rigdon & Co. reworking Spalding's text. There are also some preachy chapters that are of indeterminate authorship, and I think Rigdon & Co. stole some of Alexander Campbell's work. He really needs to be included in a re-running of the data.

I am doing a chapter-by-chapter review right now, and it matches with the text.

I really do understand your grief. I have seen it in staffings as a school psych. It is your baby, and not what you hoped it would be, but it does have some strengths.

Sorry.

:)) grins. Long post.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

MCB wrote:I understand your grief. The Book of Mormon may be fiction. It is not a historical document in the way you read it. However, it contains some good messages, if you choose to read it with ethical filters on your mind.

I consider the Jockers et al study to be better than some psychometrics, that I refer to as yardsticks with foot markings. There are some muddy parts, which probably have to do with Rigdon & Co. reworking Spalding's text. There are also some preachy chapters that are of indeterminate authorship, and I think Rigdon & Co. stole some of Alexander Campbell's work. He really needs to be included in a re-running of the data.

I am doing a chapter-by-chapter review right now, and it matches with the text.

I really do understand your grief. I have seen it in staffings as a school psych. It is your baby, and not what you hoped it would be, but it does have some strengths.

Sorry.

:)) grins. Long post.


So, you are ignoring what Matt Jockers himself said about his study and you are ignoring the study by Bruce Schaalje and the enhancements that he made to the Jockers NSC methodology, which incidentally, Matt endorsed in his post here? I don't see that we have anything to grieve about. I do not think anything you may have to say will be taken seriously if you cannot deal effectively with what Matt said and with the points Bruce made in his paper.

When the Jockers study first was publicized, the LDS apologetic community dealt with it. Specific objections were raised. Further research has shown those objections to be well founded.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

It never ceases to amaze me, MCB, that a field of study exists, with a relatively long history, a large body of literature discussing methods and practices, and so on - and yet here we have a person like yourself, with an ideological chip on the shoulder, who simply invents rather than addresses this body of literature. Really. Take some time to read up on authorship attribution.

Ben McGuire
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _MCB »

No-one enters the field of Mormon Studies without an ideological chip on their shoulder, either pro- or contra-. My analogy illustrates that.

Yes, Jockers et al has its shortcomings. Very similar to IQ tests. That does not invalidate them however. It only means that they should be addressed with caution.
a field of study exists, with a relatively long history, a large body of literature.....simply invents rather than addresses this body of literature.
And literature available in 1829 and 1815, you ignore and do not address. There is a plethora of parallels available in such literature. The Book of Mormon is an invention.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

MCB wrote:No-one enters the field of Mormon Studies without an ideological chip on their shoulder, either pro- or contra-. My analogy illustrates that.


And what is your ideological chip? From whence does it come?

Yes, Jockers et al has its shortcomings. Very similar to IQ tests. That does not invalidate them however. It only means that they should be addressed with caution.


That is true of just about any new methodology. The results and the interpretation thereof.

a field of study exists, with a relatively long history, a large body of literature.....simply invents rather than addresses this body of literature.
And literature available in 1829 and 1815, you ignore and do not address. There is a plethora of parallels available in such literature. The Book of Mormon is an invention.[/quote]

Actually Ben and several others has addressed literature available during the the periods you mentioned. There have been several lengthy discussions on the MADB with Roger and Dale.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_MCB
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _MCB »

And what is your ideological chip? From whence does it come?
Actually, it has moderated over the years. This project has mellowed me out immensely, because I now understand why LDS do what they do. And that the LDS religion is a product of American culture of the early 1800's. Check my posting history, especially for a thread I started "Testimony Thread"
That is true of just about any new methodology. The results and the interpretation thereof.
Right. A non-labeling policy, No Child Left Behind, and need-driven IEP's have changed special education. Those who dropped out of the special education field because of conscience issues sometimes get stuck outside once the needed changes are implemented. Similar to Mormonism.
Actually Ben and several others has addressed literature available during the the periods you mentioned. There have been several lengthy discussions on the MADB with Roger and Dale.
Thank you.

I am sure you can search google books for the whole contra-Mormon body of literature, as well as literature with parallels with the Book of Mormon. There is a wealth of information available, if you just get up the courage to look for it. You ignore it at your peril.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

bschaalje wrote:...This all makes good sense.


Could you please share your primary and secondary
authorship percentages for your Figure 11, as data
tabulations? -- For all 239 Book of Mormon segments.

If not as a contribution to this thread, then perhaps as
an appendix at the LLC or BYU sites?

Dale
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
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