Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

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_why me
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _why me »

Kevin Graham wrote:Brigham Young had nothing nice to say about Christianity and neither did Joseph. They all follow false priesthoods and cannot lead anyone to the celestial kingdom. They are a result of Satan's success on the earth.


The problem comes from the first vision. If the first vision was a real experience for the young joseph, then, it really doesn't matter what he had to say about other faiths since he got his message from god. The bigger issue is: would god be rather disappointed with the development of christianity up until the time of the first vision? That is a bigger question. Would He have cause to create a restored church? These questions are often overlooked by other christians as MsJack.

I think that there would be much to make god angry with those churches who claimed faithfulness to him with words but not actions. And can we claim that christian history was facing this bipolar way of being: words, yes, but actions, no?
Last edited by Guest on Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_MsJack
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _MsJack »

stemelbow wrote:You keep using "non-LDS Christianity", which is perhaps just as a neat and concise as many of the others you've used

I'm not interested in being defined by what we're not, especially when there are rules of faith that define us.

Benjamin McGuire wrote:The term is not neutral. It has a long history of polemical value. There isn't much difference between using the term and the alternative that you suggested.

Can you cite me some examples of this "long history of polemical value" in the context of Mormon-Evangelical interfaith dialogue?

Because I've been dialoguing with Mormons for over 12 years now and you're the first I've ever met to object to it.

Benjamin McGuire wrote:What is self-serving though is that you are attempting to align yourself with this traditional Christianity

There's nothing to attempt. I'm a member of the Evangelical Covenant Church, which professes the Nicene and Apostle's Creeds, which have been used by the vast majority of the Christian world as rules of faith for around 1500 years. There's nothing polemical about describing the body of Christian believers who share that part of my faith with me as "traditional Christianity."

That choice of term was incidental though. If it really bothers you so much, please pretend I said "creedal Christianity" and let the thread return to its topic.

Benjamin McGuire wrote:Mormonism clearly does not profess the Nicene creed. But we do claim to be a part of traditional Christianity

Out of curiosity, can you point me to any LDS leaders who have claimed that Mormonism is part of "traditional Christianity"?

Ben McGuire wrote:This profession (from an Evangelical perspective) is largely lip service though. After all, the Nicene creed is rather pointless given the notion of Sola Scriptura. It isn't itself scripture, and by extension, shouldn't be necessary to interpret scripture. And this is why I see it as more lip service than anything else.

You're confusing Sola Scriptura with what I would call Solo Scriptura or Nuda Scriptura. Most evangelicals denominations profess the former, not the latter. This series does a good job explaining the difference.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _MsJack »

why me wrote: Would He have cause to create a restored church? These questions are often overlooked by other christians as MsJack.

No, these questions have not been "overlooked" by me. They simply aren't the subject of this thread.

I also don't think they're particularly useful questions for the purposes of interfaith discussion, but I'm not going to elaborate on that right now.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _why me »

MsJack wrote:
why me wrote: Would He have cause to create a restored church? These questions are often overlooked by other christians as MsJack.

No, these questions have not been "overlooked" by me. They simply aren't the subject of this thread.

I also don't think they're particularly useful questions for the purposes of interfaith discussion, but I'm not going to elaborate on that right now.


I understand that. But to look at what Joseph said god said about joining other faiths is important since it may have upset other people in other denominations. Joseph's statement should have given other christian denominations pause for thought and not just a negative reaction that eventually may have led to LDS persecution.

However modern day antimormonism is mainly focused in the Internet. However, it did show its face in the US media when Romney was running for president in the primary. It was not a pretty picture.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _Kevin Graham »

It's justified in some such cases, and in some other cases wholly unrelated to Mormonism, and almost certainly even in some pro-Mormon writings.


But never is it justified when applied to fellow LDS. Right?

Not all authors who write books that are less than friendly to the Mormon faith are "disingenuous." Most, in fact, probably aren't.


But you and your hatchet-men know that it is good business to make all the critics anti-Mormons, and all the anti-Mormons disingenuous.

You've caricatured my position. You haven't represented it accurately.


Then you can prove it by naming a single LDS author who is justifiably called disingenuous. My point is that you reserve this for a select group of non-LDS, usually those who write pieces critical of issues related to the LDS faith.

Those interested in surveying the FARMS Review, and in deciding for themselves about its character, are welcome to do so. It's all on line:


Is this supposed to be news? People have judged for themselves, and the only ones left impressed with FARMS are fellow believers who love to get in on the anti-Mormon slam action. None of this crap could get published outside a Church owned printing press. Calling it scholarship is an insult to scholarship, and most non-LDS scholars who venture over there to take a peek, would agree.

I agree with the assertion that the title that Signature Books gave to the volume was a specimen of disingenuous advertising or marketing.


But you cannot make an argument as to why you believe this. Of course Grant Palmer was an insider. If he wasn't an insider then who could be called an insider? All former LDS members have inside knowledge that people outside the faith do not have. Calling it disnigenuous is just a quick way to poison the well.

And not their first, either. Amusingly, I was standing next to their booth at the annual joint meeting of the American Academy of Religion and the Society of Biblical Literature years ago when one of those staffing the booth complained to the other that their seemingly pro-Mormon titles (e.g., The Word of God, Brigham Young University: A House of Faith, Line upon Line: Essays upon Mormon Doctrine, Faithful History, and etc.), so contradictory to the books' actual contents but so helpful in marketing the books to unsuspecting Latter-day Saints, actually sent the wrong message to the non-LDS scholars wandering the meeting's vast academic book exhibit, who mistakenly viewed Signature's titles as Mormon-faith-affirming. We should, he said, really have two titles for each book, one for Mormons and one for non-believers.


Oh so you're real problem is with the liklihood that some unsuspecting LDS member might pick up one of these books and begin to read. Oh the horror! If their arguments are really so horrible, then you should welcome all LDS members to read these books as it should further strengthen their testimonies, right? But you know as well as I do that these books do in fact lure people out of the Church, because they aree willing to discuss all the problematic issues that the Church and FARMS likes to either ignore or sugarcoat. In any event, you have not explained why Palmer was disingenuous for calling himself an insider.

Curiously, you cited only a truncated version of the relevant passage about Grant Palmer. It comes from the relatively young but widely respected historian Mark Ashurst-McGee


Of course Dan, you're all widely respected. You never let us forget that. Funny how so many respected folks at BYU have to rely on the Church to publish their apologetics for them. You know none of this would ever pass peer review outside the Church. So as long as you guys keep hiding behind the Church to dress up your apologetics as "scholarship," all your gloating about being "widely respected" will continue to ring hollow.

Dr. Ashurst-McGee is making a rather different point than the one you attribute to him (and to me). Your truncation of the quote makes your claim more plausible, on the surface, than it actually is.


His argument is dumb, and it relies on a psychoanalysis of Palmer to figure out whether or not he is sincere. Like you just said, who can tell whether you are being sincere or not?

I mean this argument is not just dumb, it is REALLY dumb:

To what group is Palmer an "insider," and why does that perspective matter? The title apparently refers to his career as an instructor in the CES. But one may question whether Palmer's career as a gospel teacher furnishes him with more knowledge of "Mormon origins" than could be obtained by an "outsider." This is demonstrably not the case


This insults the intellgence of the masses and beats a straw man. Did Palmer claim it wasn't possible to obtain his level of knowledge while being an "outsider"? No. But your precious historian pounced on that straw man quickly. And the dumb argument continues:

Moreover, other "insiders" do not view things the way Palmer does. So what is really at work in the book's title? Essentially, it is a piece of disingenuous advertising. It intends to present Palmer as a seasoned gospel teacher who will shepherd those who wish to learn more about the origins of their faith.


Did Palmer ever claim that he belonged to a group of insiders who shared a united thought? No, but don't let that stop the "widely respected" historian from pouncing on that straw man. The last sentence there is a futile exercise is pop-psychoanalysis which is used to justify his attack on Palmer as disingenuous.

The point is that Grant Palmer isn't an insider at all, and that what he writes doesn't represent the views of actual insiders. Accordingly, calling his book "an insider's view," while an effective marketing ploy, is misleading.


Again this is a dumb argument that your historian didn't establish. All he did was beat upon two straw men. He didn't ever establish the point that Palmer wasn't an insider, he merely asserted it as if that conclusion followed from all the straw that went flying about. There is nothing misleading about calling yourself an insider when you've been in the Church as long as he has. The fact that he held positions as an educator in the Church is just extra gravy for his "marketing ploy." But there is certainly nothing inaccurate about it, and if it isn't inaccurate, it cannot be misleading, and if not misleading, it cannot be disingenuous. The fact that you guys leap to that illicit conclusion based on a fabrication of evidence says much more about you than it ever will Palmer.

Grant Palmer, Dr. Ashurst-McGee says, is not an "insider" in any sense relevant to the historiography of Mormon origins. He wasn't an eyewitness, obviously, and he had no record -- not just not a strong record, but literally no record at all -- of published scholarship on the topic.


Straw man #3. The hits just keep on coming huh? Palmer never claimed to have been a published insider, and publication is not a requirement for insider status and never has been. Where do you guys come up with this nonsense?

Nor has he ever presented papers on the subject at scholarly gatherings, Mormon or non-Mormon.


Straw man #4. He never claimed to have presented papers at any scholarly gatherings, nor would any of this preclude him from being rightfully called an insider.

He may well have been an insider with respect to teaching seminary and, briefly, institute classes for the Church Education System, or even to internal CES politics . . . but, when people want an "insider's" view of formative early-nineteenth-century Mormon history, that's probably not the kind of "insider" they're looking for.


An argument from probability about what you think other people will think. That seems to be the basis for your justification in the use of the term disingenuous.

And saying that he is an insider in the undeniable sense that he's one of several million members of the Church seems rather trivial and uninteresting. My home teaching companion, a former bishop and a physical therapist, is an "insider" in precisely that same sense, but I'll wager that he would never dream of publishing a book entitled "An Insider's View of Early Mormon History."


But if he decided to, it would be justified. As I said, all former LDS are insiders to knowledge otrhers outside the faith do not have. You focus on the "several million" Mormons and I'll point out the few hundred million Americans who aren't Mormons. By all reasonable standards, they would consider someone of Palmer's background, an insider.

This is where branding me as "disingenuous" is very helpful to your criticism; you can simply dismiss what I say and replace it with what you say about me. Quite handy, really.


Oh Dan, why would I ever do that when relying on your own words is more than sufficient to make my point?

What you say about me on this point wouldn't, however, stand up to an actual survey of my actual usage of the term.


Probably not, but as you said, you're the editor of the review so you sign off on all that it publishes. So you're credibility and reputation will forever be tied to all that you let slip through the peer review process.
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _Kishkumen »

For the longest time I was offended that Christians would consider me, a Mormon, not Christian. Even today, as an inactive non-believer, I still smart at the opposition that Christians have aimed at Mormons. For example, I was pretty shocked and scandalized at the comments other Republican candidates (or their mothers) made about Mormonism during the primaries in the last election cycle.

Laying that hurt aside, however, when I consider the history of Christianity, and the claims of Mormonism to represent the real Christianity after a long night of apostasy beginning at the passing of the apostles, I can't help but intellectually conclude that, from a traditional Christian perspective, Mormonism is most definitely anti-Christian in the way it stands opposed (to use Dr. Peterson's terminology) fundamentals of traditional Christian faith.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _GlennThigpen »

Kishkumen wrote:For the longest time I was offended that Christians would consider me, a Mormon, not Christian. Even today, as an inactive non-believer, I still smart at the opposition that Christians have aimed at Mormons. For example, I was pretty shocked and scandalized at the comments other Republican candidates (or their mothers) made about Mormonism during the primaries in the last election cycle.

Laying that hurt aside, however, when I consider the history of Christianity, and the claims of Mormonism to represent the real Christianity after a long night of apostasy beginning at the passing of the apostles, I can't help but intellectually conclude that, from a traditional Christian perspective, Mormonism is most definitely anti-Christian in the way it stands opposed (to use Dr. Peterson's terminology) fundamentals of traditional Christian faith.



On the other hand, I have never let myself get invested emothionally what other Christians may call me or the LDS faith. With a last name like Thigpen, I learned at an early age that I had a choice, eother buy into the "stick and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me" adage, or live forever with hurt feelings. It was not an easy thing to do, but I really had only those two options.
And, since God will be the final arbiter of who is and is not a Christian, I will just leave it up to Him and continue not to be bothered by what labels some of those of other faiths might apply to my faith.

Several years ago an LDS man on a little island off the coast of North Carolina died. he had led an exemplary life. His wife said of him that in thirty-six years of marriage, he had never once raised his voice to her or said one unkind thing to her. After the man's funeral, his brother sat down with religious leaders on the island about the not Christian label. Everyone knows everyone else on that island. There is a small cadre of LDS among a much larger (relatively speaking) group of mainstream Christians. The brother's position was simple that the deceased man had been as closer to a perfect model of how a Christian should lead his life than anybody that any of them knew that it was time to retire the "Mormons are not Christians" dogma. After conferreing among themselves, those religious leaders decided that there was something to that idea. The result is that now, on Harker's Island, North Carolina at least, Mormons are now considered Christians.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _why me »

Kevin Graham wrote:
It's justified in some such cases, and in some other cases wholly unrelated to Mormonism, and almost certainly even in some pro-Mormon writings.


But never is it justified when applied to fellow LDS. Right?




Your response in your complete post is full of bitterness and hostility. Both of which you can not seem to hide behind a veil of courtesy. And this tone would make you a candidate for antimormonism.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _why me »

Kishkumen wrote:
I can't help but intellectually conclude that, from a traditional Christian perspective, Mormonism is most definitely anti-Christian in the way it stands opposed (to use Dr. Peterson's terminology) fundamentals of traditional Christian faith.


And of course your new status as a former Mormon does not cloud your new viewpoint. But in this I may only be intellectually concluding in this opinion.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

MsJack writes:
There's nothing polemical about describing the body of Christian believers who share that part of my faith with me as "traditional Christianity."
Yes, there is. Because clearly you imply something by the term "traditional Christianity" which doesn't exist. And you use the term (which cannot be defined without causing problems) as a way of excluding others, not as a way of defining belief. This makes it polemical.
That choice of term was incidental though. If it really bothers you so much, please pretend I said "creedal Christianity" and let the thread return to its topic.
I will. I think that this is a much more appropriate way to describe it.
Out of curiosity, can you point me to any LDS leaders who have claimed that Mormonism is part of "traditional Christianity"?
Sure, although the flavor that was preferred by Mormonism was the "primitive church" or "original Christianity" (I don't think I need to find references - you should be familiar enough with at least a reference or two). But this itself is just as meaningless. It develops meaning only by comparison. Much like the term "traditional Christianity" as opposed to "creedal Christianity" which is defined not by comparison, but by what it includes.
You're confusing Sola Scriptura with what I would call Solo Scriptura or Nuda Scriptura. Most evangelicals denominations profess the former, not the latter. This series does a good job explaining the difference.

Actually, I don't think it does a very good job at all. Take the definition of Sola Scriptura:
Belief that Scripture is the final and only infallible authority for the Christian in all matters of faith and practice. While there are other authorities, they are always fallible and the must always be tested by
and submit to the Scriptures.

And the definition of solo scriptura:
Belief that Scripture is the sole basis and authority in the life of the Christian. Tradition is useless and misleading, and creeds and confessions are the result of man-made traditions.
The one actually seems like a logical extension of the other (and the second is certainly articulated by more than a small group of Evangelicals). The creeds are clearly fallible. Whether or not they are misleading is merely a question of whether you interpret scripture to agree with them or not. The one thing that I disagree with on that site is the simple fact that Solo Scriptura is believed by many Evangelicals (the site that you link seems to avoid that issue). It takes little more than a google search to find a number of books and articles on the subject. So my question now for you is quite simple - Evangelicals who believe solo scriptura (as opposed to sola scriptura) - are they non-creedal Christians?

Ben McGuire
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