Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

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_bcuzbcuz
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Re: Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

Post by _bcuzbcuz »

Tobin wrote:You've added NOTHING whatsoever to the discussion. You are speaking about an empire during the iron age and are loosely mixing up the Jaredites and Nephites (two completely different civilizations) As far as the Jaredites are concenred, where was the battleground at precisely? And according to Mosiah, the swords had mostly rusted away by their time. I'd love to hear your explanation how we are going to identify swords from a deposit of iron oxide (which there is a lot of that in North and South America by the way)? It's a mental fiction you have created for youself where the Book of Mormon MUST of described an iron age when in reality it does not.


The Jaredites fought on the same hill as the Nephites. Look it up. (Mormon 6;2) The Nephites had steel, check your sources. And more than 2 million men died in battle there.

"The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)

"These records were carried by Ether from the hill Ramah, afterwards called Cumorah, where the Jaredites were destroyed, as well as the Nephites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, May 18, 1873 Journal of Discourses Vol. 16, pg. 50

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)

"Cumorah, the artificial hill of north America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth. In that day, her inhabitants spread from sea to sea, and enjoyed national greatness and glory, nearly fifteen hundred years. -- That people forsook the Lord and died in wickedness. There, too, fell the Nephites, after they had forgotten the Lord that bought them. There slept the records of age after age, for hundreds of years, even until the time of the Lord." (The Latter-day Saints' Messenger and Advocate, Vol.2, No.2, p.221)

"It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

"Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history...." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)

"Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York.

"Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah."(Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 174-175, Bookcraft 1966)

Joseph Smith stated where the last battles took place. The Nephites had steel.

I'm assuming by your answer that no steel has been dug up from these ancient battles. Curiouser and curiouser.
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_Tobin
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Re: Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

Post by _Tobin »

bcuzbcuz wrote:The Jaredites fought on the same hill as the Nephites. Look it up. (Mormon 6;2) The Nephites had steel, check your sources. And more than 2 million men died in battle there.
Yawn, again you are adding NOTHING to the discussion. Where is THIS hill? And just a FYI, the Jaredites were destroyed in the land of desolation. The hill Ramah (Cumorah) is near there.
bcuzbcuz wrote:"The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)
Speculation.
bcuzbcuz wrote:"These records were carried by Ether from the hill Ramah, afterwards called Cumorah, where the Jaredites were destroyed, as well as the Nephites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, May 18, 1873 Journal of Discourses Vol. 16, pg. 50
So what? Doesn't help identify the location at all.
bcuzbcuz wrote:"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)
Again speculation.
bcuzbcuz wrote:"Cumorah, the artificial hill of north America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth. In that day, her inhabitants spread from sea to sea, and enjoyed national greatness and glory, nearly fifteen hundred years. -- That people forsook the Lord and died in wickedness. There, too, fell the Nephites, after they had forgotten the Lord that bought them. There slept the records of age after age, for hundreds of years, even until the time of the Lord." (The Latter-day Saints' Messenger and Advocate, Vol.2, No.2, p.221)
Speculation.
bcuzbcuz wrote:"It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.
"Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history...." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)
Speculation.
bcuzbcuz wrote:"Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York.
"Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah."(Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 174-175, Bookcraft 1966)
And again as I've said, "Speculation!"
bcuzbcuz wrote:Joseph Smith stated where the last battles took place. The Nephites had steel.
And oh really?

Let me say this again (AND READ IT THIS TIME PLEASE), where the Book of Mormon was deposited in NY is NOT the place where these battles were fought!
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_Runtu
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Re: Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

Post by _Runtu »

Tobin wrote: Let me say this again (AND READ IT THIS TIME PLEASE), where the Book of Mormon was deposited in NY is NOT the place where these battles were fought!


Speculation.
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_Tobin
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Re: Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

Post by _Tobin »

Runtu wrote:
Tobin wrote: Let me say this again (AND READ IT THIS TIME PLEASE), where the Book of Mormon was deposited in NY is NOT the place where these battles were fought!
Speculation.
Yes, but it's informed speculation. These civilizations were in Central America. It is meaningless speculation that they would have gone to New York (more than a thouands miles away) to have their battles, unless you also assume they had trains, cars, and airplanes too. The fact is Joseph Smith never referred to the hill as Cumorah and more importantly, neither did the Angel Moroni. All your sources are people that are just speculating that because Moroni buried the book in a box in a hill near where Joseph Smith would be, this must be the hill Cumorah. It isn't.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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Re: Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

Post by _MCB »

you also assume they had trains, cars, and airplanes too.
How do you KNOW that they didn't, as well as horses pulling chariots and wagons?
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Re: Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

Post by _Runtu »

Tobin wrote:Yes, but it's informed speculation.


Informed in what way?

These civilizations were in Central America.


More speculation.

It is meaningless speculation that they would have gone to New York (more than a thouands miles away) to have their battles, unless you also assume they had trains, cars, and airplanes too. The fact is Joseph Smith never referred to the hill as Cumorah and more importantly, neither did the Angel Moroni.


Lucy Smith says Joseph referred to the hill where he found the plates as "the hill of Cumorah." Also, David Whitmer claimed that he met an old man carrying a heavy, book-shaped object in a knapsack and heading towards Palmyra. The man said, "I am going across to the hill Cumorah." He continues: "It was the messenger who had the plates, who had taken them from Joseph just prior to our starting from Harmony."

The only reason the apologists have moved Nephite/Lamanite civilization from the mound builders to the Maya is that the mound builder locale doesn't work very well (unless you happen to believe Rodney Meldrum).

All your sources are people that are just speculating that because Moroni buried the book in a box in a hill near where Joseph Smith would be, this must be the hill Cumorah. It isn't.


Then why did Lucy Smith and David Whitmer both confirm that the hill was called Cumorah?
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_Tobin
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Re: Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

Post by _Tobin »

Runtu wrote:Then why did Lucy Smith and David Whitmer both confirm that the hill was called Cumorah?
Why did Joseph F. Smith or Bruce R. say it was? The reason is simple. The hill Cumorah is surrounded by lots of speculation, second-hand stories and urban legends that have developed over time. There were lots of stories about Jesus Christ too and his superboy powers in apocryphal writings. I don't give much credence to those stories either. It is better to deal with archeological evidence and the sources that would know such as Joseph Smith himself or even better, the Angel Moroni.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Equality
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Re: Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

Post by _Equality »

Are you sure it isn't just speculation by a Mormon prophet instead that it is in New York?

I love how anything the Mormon prophets have said for which there is no supporting evidence is just mere "speculation" or "opinion" and not to be relied upon as, you know, true and stuff. The Mormon prophets also claim Jesus rose from the dead. That has as much supporting evidence as millions dying on the Hill Cumorah. I guess we can just call that mere speculation, too. Works for me.

I guess apologists are all cafeteria Mormons, deciding which statements of the prophets to take as true and which are mere speculation.
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Re: Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

Post by _Runtu »

Equality wrote:I love how anything the Mormon prophets have said for which there is no supporting evidence is just mere "speculation" or "opinion" and not to be relied upon as, you know, true and stuff. The Mormon prophets also claim Jesus rose from the dead. That has as much supporting evidence as millions dying on the Hill Cumorah. I guess we can just call that mere speculation, too. Works for me.

I guess apologists are all cafeteria Mormons, deciding which statements of the prophets to take as true and which are mere speculation.


It is interesting, isn't it? David Whitmer says an angel showed him gold plates, and that is indisputable evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon. David Whitmer says he saw a messenger on his way to Cumorah, which is later confirmed by Joseph Smith, and that's superstition and speculation.
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Re: Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

Post by _Tobin »

Runtu wrote:It is interesting, isn't it? David Whitmer says an angel showed him gold plates, and that is indisputable evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon. David Whitmer says he saw a messenger on his way to Cumorah, which is later confirmed by Joseph Smith, and that's superstition and speculation.
There really is no reason to believe David Whitmer about very much and that goes for the whole host of characters associated with Joe Smith, Jesus Christ, and so on down the line. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. That is why I have said it is essential to speak with God to be Mormon; otherwise, there really isn't any reason to believe in any of it. Come on - Joseph Smith claimed to have seen God, angels, gold books - what else do you need to doubt him? It is patently absurd, unless God shows up and tells you it is true.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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