The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

[_bcuzbcuz]

Imagine that you come across a burning building and there is no way to put out the fire. You hear people call to you from inside the building and you go inside. You find a room with some people inside. In the room you find a baby, a ten year old with a broken leg, a pregnant woman about 25 who can't walk, and an old man about eighty with no legs. You know there is only time to bring one person out of the building before it is engulfed in flames. What do you do?

First, I would marvel at finding a place where all the people, other than myself, were basically immobile.

I would have the pregnant woman carry the baby in her arms, I would carry them both, and the ten year old would hobble, using me for support.

Having worked in counselling I know from experience that both the survivors and the rescuer need grief counselling about the person(s) not saved.

What I don't understand is what your question has to do with the topic? Or is it designed for a one person audience?

[_Drifting]

Imagine that you come across a burning building and there is no way to put out the fire. You hear people call to you from inside the building and you go inside. You find a room with some people inside. In the room you find a baby, a ten year old with a broken leg, a pregnant woman about 25 who can't walk, and an old man about eighty with no legs. You know there is only time to bring one person out of the building before it is engulfed in flames. What do you do?

First, I would marvel at finding a place where all the people, other than myself, were basically immobile.

I would have the pregnant woman carry the baby in her arms, I would carry them both, and the ten year old would hobble, using me for support.

Having worked in counselling I know from experience that both the survivors and the rescuer need grief counselling about the person(s) not saved.

What I don't understand is what your question has to do with the topic? Or is it designed for a one person audience?

Frank is trying to make the case for spirituality being more important than anything physical. In this example he (and Sheryl) think it more important to sit with the people and give them spiritual comfort as opposed to saving any of them.

[_bcuzbcuz]

I am confused and maybe one of you people who worship the world can help me out. When Darwin argued that the dust of the earth self organized are we to worship Darwin because he came up with the idea or are we to worship the dust?

Darwin said nothing about "dust self-organizing". Lee Smolin, theoretical physicist, in his book "Life of the Cosmos" uses such terminology. Is that what you're referring to?

Is the person who comes up with an idea the defining paradigm for worship? Moses should then be worshipped for the Books of Moses. Joseph Smith for the Book of Mormon (or Moroni, if you so wish). Newton for the theory of gravity. And I should be worshipped for my sperm donation that created my kids.

[_bcuzbcuz]

Frank is trying to make the case for spirituality being more important than anything physical. In this example he (and Sheryl) think it more important to sit with the people and give them spiritual comfort as opposed to saving any of them.

I, for one, would never run into a burning building just because it is a burning building. I assumed in the scenario that someone had shouted out, either in pain or in the hope of being saved. If someone is calling out for help, I will also assume that they do, in fact, want help.

If I was a believing Christian/Moslim/Buddhist would I then just sit down with the "soon-to-be-burned-alive" victims and say, "In your best interest I am not going to try to save you???????" Would not a very "heated" discussion (pun intended) follow over the merits of dying now or dying later?

Should they accept my premise (my outstandlingly selfish premise, I might add) that their "being burned alive" was in their own best interest, would I comfort them with hearing their "death-bed confessions"? The baby in swaddling presumably could not confess....nor need to....nor be able to have the free will to choose to be burnt alive....(I presumably am willing to make the babies decision, in proxy, for it). The baby in the womb could not, unless through ventriloquism or saintly protection, speak for itself. (Again, I take that responsibility upon myself.) Whose confession would I hear first?

Does anyone else feel that this is a bullcrap discussion? We might as well be discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I think this is a "straw man", and a burning straw man, at that.

[_Drifting]

As the restrainer leaves the earth the powers of Satan will manifest. My guess is that around 5% of the faithful will remain faithful. I hope I am wrong. My hope is that billions are martyred.

Bcuzbcuz,

I think this excerpt from the OP may go someway towards clearing up any ambiguity surrounding Franktalk's posting motives.

[_Roger Morrison]

Frank is trying to make the case for spirituality being more important than anything physical. In this example he (and Sheryl) think it more important to sit with the people and give them spiritual comfort as opposed to saving any of them.

I, for one, would never run into a burning building just because it is a burning building. I assumed in the scenario that someone had shouted out, either in pain or in the hope of being saved. If someone is calling out for help, I will also assume that they do, in fact, want help.

If I was a believing Christian/Moslim/Buddhist would I then just sit down with the "soon-to-be-burned-alive" victims and say, "In your best interest I am not going to try to save you???????" Would not a very "heated" discussion (pun intended) follow over the merits of dying now or dying later?

Should they accept my premise (my outstandlingly selfish premise, I might add) that their "being burned alive" was in their own best interest, would I comfort them with hearing their "death-bed confessions"? The baby in swaddling presumably could not confess....nor need to....nor be able to have the free will to choose to be burnt alive....(I presumably am willing to make the babies decision, in proxy, for it). The baby in the womb could not, unless through ventriloquism or saintly protection, speak for itself. (Again, I take that responsibility upon myself.) Whose confession would I hear first?

Does anyone else feel that this is a bullcrap discussion? We might as well be discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I think this is a "straw man", and a burning straw man, at that.

YES! Vain imaginings! So be it. Some enjoy the game
Live & let live Roger

[_Franktalk]

First, I would marvel at finding a place where all the people, other than myself, were basically immobile.

I would have the pregnant woman carry the baby in her arms, I would carry them both, and the ten year old would hobble, using me for support.

Having worked in counselling I know from experience that both the survivors and the rescuer need grief counselling about the person(s) not saved.

What I don't understand is what your question has to do with the topic? Or is it designed for a one person audience?

The question is made for us to think about our priorities. The physical running in and pulling people out is not the intent of the question. All of the responses that deal with the physical reality are very limited in what they describe. What is the thinking process and what about the worth of the people. How is that determined? I have stated that the worth of all of them are the same no matter the age or condition. The worth is associated with their spirit and not their flesh.

If one believes in the Kingdom of God then that has to mean something. It also means that this world is not all there is. If you wrap yourself with the concept of an afterlife then everything in this world shifts in perspective and priority. It is my understanding that most of the people on these boards who left the LDS faith have joined the world. I am waiting for someone to tell me otherwise.

[_bcuzbcuz]

The question is made for us to think about our priorities. The physical running in and pulling people out is not the intent of the question.

Thanks. You state that which I implied, that this scenario is an exercise in futility, a mind game. Mind games are a driving factor in religion. Create an issue; provide an answer. The scenario with religion is: What would happen if......... And the game begins.

When the angry, punishing god of the old testament had run its gamut, enter the kind, loving god. The kind, loving god who just wants to test us to see if we really like him. A rather forlorn, clingy god who plays at: "Go Away, Come Closer" games.

If one believes in the Kingdom of God then that has to mean something. It also means that this world is not all there is. If you wrap yourself with the concept of an afterlife then everything in this world shifts in perspective and priority.

It's the ultimate mortgage plan. You get to stand outside in the cold, But, keep those payments coming. If you've paid enough, and god happens to like you (he already knows if you're going to succeed or not) and you fulfill his payment plan to every seen and unseen iota, then and only then, will he give you a mansion in the sky. (Which, by the way, due to contract restrictions, you can neither see nor touch, and you only get to inhabit after you're dead)

That, to me, sounds like the ultimate shill game.

It is my understanding that most of the people on these boards who left the LDS faith have joined the world. I am waiting for someone to tell me otherwise.

I can't speak for anyone else, other than myself. It was not an easy decision to leave the LDS faith. And it was not a happy divorce. My mother had my name on countless temple prayer lists, hoping against hope, that I would see the error of my ways. But she didn't want to see and never wanted to hear, my side of the story. She would literally get heart cramps if I even suggested I was content with being outside the faith. (guilt trip)

But that is an interesting juxtapositioning you make. "Leave the LDS faith: Join the world." How about: Leave Wonderland; Join reality.

[_Roger Morrison]

Franktalk wrote:
It is my understanding that most of the people on these boards who left the LDS faith have joined the world. I am waiting for someone to tell me otherwise.


Hi Frank, You use some interesting terminology to express opinions based upon your own sentiments.

bcuzbcuz gave a good scenario of what you have subscribed to, yet you seem to write it off as if it is faulty, and that you are absolutely correct. And all non believers in the here-after are wrong and without faith?? Or so it seems that's the way you think. . .

Let me try, "...to tell you otherwise."
I graduated from Mormonism. Smarter, more experienced, more knowledgeable about LDSism & Christianity, than I was 30+ years before. I seldom look back with regrets. I/we willingly gave much, and got back huge returns.
You might wonder why we left??

Because Mormonism exposed/proved its self to be not what it pretended to be.
Mormonism is an insular society with an inflated opinion of itself & its supposed destiny. It is despotic, authoritarian & totalitarian, never professing any democratic activities... A one party system. . . It's their way or no way! LDS Templeism, IN MY SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED OPINION, (IMSCO) is an entrapment that appeals to a particular mind set. That by its very creed and rituals is elitist and prejudicial to the extreme!

Much like Communism, an Atheistic party, Mormonism is a quasi Theistic system that has convinced its faithful, from day-one, that God directs this one special (true) church, and it only, by revelation to THE one Prophet on earth. This one being Thomas S. Monson. . .
The first prophet in this dispensation was Joseph Smith, Jr. (circa 1830)

"Joining the world..." Not sure what you mean by that? Generally speaking, I haven't met any Mormons, and I've met 1,000s, who are not worldly. LDS saying: "In the world but not of it!" OR trying for worldly success?? Like who isn't, eh?
Do you know of anyone, LDS or otherwise, who has followed Jesus' path to perfection: "Sell what you have & give the $$ to the poor!"
Maybe your "world" concept is more uniquely yours than you expect???

So Frank, I don't know if I was frank enough. But I tried to answer / explain that leaving Mormonism is usually done with much serious consideration. It's not something taken lightly. Especially by someone who has been a "Faithful Member" for several/many years.
When they don't return, I think you can be assured, that for them, 'leaving' was definitely the right thing to do. . . As well seeing the whole salvation/blood atonement and resurrection dogma as being fantasia and not contributing to the good life Jesus encouraged. "Know the truth and be free!"

Best regards & luck, Roger

[_sheryl]

It is my understanding that most of the people on these boards who left the LDS faith have joined the world. I am waiting for someone to tell me otherwise.

Hi Frank!

You know that this is not true with me. I left the Mormon Church and grew closer to God. And from the perspective that I hold now, those who are active members of the Mormon Church are still joined with the world.

Perhaps we have a difference of opinion as to what 'world' is?

I define world as functioning according to the negativity of the world, or living with feelings of lack, under the delusion of separation, causing one to seek for self alone.

Signs of not being of the world are:

1. Living according to the Christ Presence and Power within, instead of simply reacting to what happens to one's self.

2. Seeing God in all things, whether apparently auspicious or inauspicious. Giving praise and thanks to God for all that God has given, even that which is unpleasant.

3. Able to love all, including one's enemies.

4. Seeking or desiring happiness, healing, illumination - the good, for all, and resting in faith that what does unfold in this world is all according God's Will. Our heart wish though being for the elimination of suffering, of all, and having faith that our heart wish will be granted, in God's timing and Wisdom.

5. Always keeping our eye focused above, beyond our self, into the heavens. Living in constant prayer for this world. Expecting in faith the liberation of all beings.

Those who are not able to live in this manner, which is obeying Christ's Commandments and abiding in His Word, are still of the world. They have not yet matured sufficiently to 'come our of her'. I believe though that those gathered at a Board such as this one, are maturing, are seeking and will soon come out of her, or the world. If not in this life, then soon after.

Shalom!

Sheryl