Stay Strong Saints

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_Drifting
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _Drifting »

gdemetz wrote:I have read about these marriages, but frankly don't remember all the names , dates, and circumstances, however, if you are interested, look under "polyandrous" marriages of Joseph Smith in FAIR.


It's funny that when you are called out on your claims and assertions you suddenly don't remember/can't find/didn't really say....

Try these websites for confirmation of Joseph Smiths philandery.
Family Search
The Wives of Joseph Smith
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
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"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
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_gdemetz
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _gdemetz »

As I stated before, I have read about his marriages, maybe eleven or so, and you and I weren't around those days, but it appears to me that in a number of those marriages there was probably no intimate relations. If you can go back in time and see exactly what happened, please let me know.
_Themis
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _Themis »

gdemetz wrote:As I stated before, I have read about his marriages, maybe eleven or so, and you and I weren't around those days, but it appears to me that in a number of those marriages there was probably no intimate relations. If you can go back in time and see exactly what happened, please let me know.


No one here is saying Joseph has sex with every wife, single or married to others, or that he intended to. In fact I think one of his older wives was there to help convince other women to marry Joseph. You asserted that Joseph viewed marriages to married women differently. We asked you to provide evidence for this assertion, You have not, and I think now may realize it's not there. You need to also understand some of us have read these articles long ago, so we knew when asking you that evidence most likely had still not come forward. This assertion may not be impossible, but is an invention to protect belief. An invention based on no evidence is something many members realize should not be accepted, especially when other evidence shows that the assertion is incorrect. I see you still have not dealt with BY.

Also when discussing issues and being asked for evidence, you need to do more point to a certain website like fair or farms. Even more then the specific article, but where in the article so others can easily find it and see if there is evidence. It should also not be just a repeat of the assertion but provide actual evidence. In this case some historical document that has Joseph making this kind of assertion. This would be very strong, especially if you have separate instances of this. Now a wife saying this would also be very strong, and less so as you get farther from the source(Joseph and his wives). This is why many members still believing or not reject this assertion. There is no evidence for it, and some against it.
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_gdemetz
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _gdemetz »

I am trying to satisfy you regarding this matter, Themis, even though I am much more comfortable discussing church doctrine than church history. A good example of this is that I was under the impression that Joseph had less than twenty wives, however, I have just now come across some interesting information from a man who has done perhaps more extensive research regarding this matter than I have heretofore seen. He has an 800 plus page book regarding the marriages of Joseph Smith, and He has documented thirty-three, and states that there could be as many as ten or more that he does not document. His name is Todd M. Compton, and the book is entitled, "In Sacred Loneliness." He appears to be, for the most part fairly objective, but he does state that he does not view Joseph Smith as being "morally perfect or receiving revelation unmixed with human or cultural limitations."

The main criticism for outside the church for the practice of polygamy, especially in regard to Joseph's has been for so-called polyandrous marriages. However, a review of the documentary work shows no evidence of intimacy in the eight listed so-called polyandrous marriages, with the exception of one. As I stated previously, that statement could have been misinterpreted, and I believe that it was. As for as the other seven are concerned, the book states that; "Absolutely nothing is known of this marriage after the ceremony," or some similar statement, which is very strange indeed unless the obvious premiss is accepted which is that they were sealings intended for the hereafter.
_Themis
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _Themis »

gdemetz wrote:I am trying to satisfy you regarding this matter, Themis, even though I am much more comfortable discussing church doctrine than church history. A good example of this is that I was under the impression that Joseph had less than twenty wives, however, I have just now come across some interesting information from a man who has done perhaps more extensive research regarding this matter than I have heretofore seen. He has an 800 plus page book regarding the marriages of Joseph Smith, and He has documented thirty-three, and states that there could be as many as ten or more that he does not document. His name is Todd M. Compton, and the book is entitled, "In Sacred Loneliness." He appears to be, for the most part fairly objective, but he does state that he does not view Joseph Smith as being "morally perfect or receiving revelation unmixed with human or cultural limitations."


His is probably one of the best sources to learn more about it.

The main criticism for outside the church for the practice of polygamy, especially in regard to Joseph's has been for so-called polyandrous marriages.


Also from within the church. It bother members, you included. This is why your desire to believe overrides your desire for truth that you do not want to accept that Joseph has sexual intercourse with the married ones.

However, a review of the documentary work shows no evidence of intimacy in the eight listed so-called polyandrous marriages, with the exception of one.


Actually 11 polyandrous marriages, and we have two the second(Zina) we know intimacy went on.

As I stated previously, that statement could have been misinterpreted, and I believe that it was.


You can interpret it anyway you want, and while not impossible, it is not reasonable. The reasonable interpretation is she was saying to her daughter that she was literally Joseph's daughter. You would need more evidence to make your interpretation reasonable, but we see the opposite. She only tells the one child who is the only one who could be Joseph's biological child. That she does this on her death bed an only to one child makes your interpretation very unreasonable and obviously done to protect your beliefs.

As for as the other seven are concerned, the book states that; "Absolutely nothing is known of this marriage after the ceremony," or some similar statement, which is very strange indeed unless the obvious premiss is accepted which is that they were sealings intended for the hereafter.


Not at all, and it's 10. This practice was done in great secrecy, so little evidence exists even for the single ones. We get more evidence simply because the church wanted to counter the RLDS claims that Joseph was not a polygamous.

Your premise in not obvious since no evidence exists that Joseph or others considered them this way, and we have evidence of the opposite. You still have ignored BY and Zina on this issue. Your premise is an invention simply because some members needed to still believe and could not accept Joseph had sex with the married ones. That's the whole reason for this apologetic, although many apologists think he had every right to. At least you can recognize that marrying other men's wives is wrong, but we still haven't covered why Joseph went behind most of their backs, or other manipulative behavior. The smart ones see that this is not how God would go about this messy business.
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_SteelHead
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _SteelHead »

What type of polygamous marriage was performed before the sealing power was restored?

How was Joseph sealed to a lady that hadn't been baptized at the time of the sealing?
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

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_Drifting
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _Drifting »

gdemetz wrote:I am trying to satisfy you regarding this matter, Themis, even though I am much more comfortable discussing church doctrine than church history. A good example of this is that I was under the impression that Joseph had less than twenty wives, however, I have just now come across some interesting information from a man who has done perhaps more extensive research regarding this matter than I have heretofore seen. He has an 800 plus page book regarding the marriages of Joseph Smith, and He has documented thirty-three, and states that there could be as many as ten or more that he does not document. His name is Todd M. Compton, and the book is entitled, "In Sacred Loneliness." He appears to be, for the most part fairly objective, but he does state that he does not view Joseph Smith as being "morally perfect or receiving revelation unmixed with human or cultural limitations."


Gd,

It may help your interactions if you realise that the majority of posters on this board are significantly better versed on Church History and Doctrine than you are (or me for that matter).

This isn't a criticism of you, it's a criticism of Mormonism.

The Church hides this information from members and gets them worked up to be frightened of it. (Comptons book is classed as anti-Mormon material and most people here are very familiar with it). I call it Mormon Infobia - a fear of facts.

When Mormons come to this board they assume they are far more knowledgeable than they actually are. It can sometimes be a little bit painful to be schooled on things you think you have all the answers for.

Persevere though, this board is worth going through that learning cure.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_gdemetz
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _gdemetz »

Well Themis, it is reasonable to me. This source, certainly not what could be termed a pro LDS one, repeatedly stated that one polyandrous marriage after another was performed, and then nothing more was heard about it. The LDS sources argue that there was no intimacy, the anti's say there was. If I were a fly on the wall then, I would know for sure if that was just a one time "quickie" and goodbye and thank you ma'am (which would appear completely out of character for Joseph for the ones that knew him intimately), or if they were indeed "spiritual" weddings. It would also seem very strange to me that one or two of these would be totally different from all the others, unless it were a case where the couple had split.
_Drifting
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _Drifting »

gdemetz wrote:Well Themis, it is reasonable to me. This source, certainly not what could be termed a pro LDS one, repeatedly stated that one polyandrous marriage after another was performed, and then nothing more was heard about it. The LDS sources argue that there was no intimacy, the anti's say there was. If I were a fly on the wall then, I would know for sure if that was just a one time "quickie" and goodbye and thank you ma'am (which would appear completely out of character for Joseph for the ones that knew him intimately), or if they were indeed "spiritual" weddings. It would also seem very strange to me that one or two of these would be totally different from all the others, unless it were a case where the couple had split.


The commandment in D&C 132 is explicit about polygamy being for the production of offspring (raising seed). If Joseph wasn't having sex with his wives then he was disobeying a direct commandment from God.

It has to be one:
[ ] disobeying God
[ ] rumpy pumpy with the missus's

You choose....
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Themis
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _Themis »

gdemetz wrote:Well Themis, it is reasonable to me. This source, certainly not what could be termed a pro LDS one, repeatedly stated that one polyandrous marriage after another was performed, and then nothing more was heard about it. The LDS sources argue that there was no intimacy, the anti's say there was. If I were a fly on the wall then, I would know for sure if that was just a one time "quickie" and goodbye and thank you ma'am (which would appear completely out of character for Joseph for the ones that knew him intimately), or if they were indeed "spiritual" weddings. It would also seem very strange to me that one or two of these would be totally different from all the others, unless it were a case where the couple had split.


Not all apologists agree with your assertion they were somehow different. Again this is an apologetic invention based on nothing, except a desire to believe Joseph did not have sex with them. That's it. We do see that Sylvia telling her daughter she was Joseph's daughter. There is really only one reasonable meaning to her statement based on the evidence we have discussed. I have hinted at BY and Zina multiple times, and I see you still have not dealt with it. It is probably one of the biggest pieces that show Joseph and BY did not view polyandrous marriages any differently then others marriages. Spiritual weddings is an invention based on no evidence.

by the way as to Joseph's character, you don't know much about it since you don't know much about history of Joseph, except the picture the church has taught you. I thought the same things based on the same misinformation.
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