Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_Albion]

sleepyhead, I think you miss an essential, over riding element of the role of the prophet which was to be God's mouthpiece in preparing his people for the first coming of Christ. At that point, the "law AND the prophets" was fulfilled. As scripture shows, the full mystery of God is revealed in Christ, as well as his grace in totality. Just as the law holds no power over believers so prophets in the sense of Old Testament prophets was fulfilled, done away with. What more important things can god reveals than himself in Jesus? Mormons can lament for poor old Christianity that they have no prophets, they have no apostles. they have no priesthood, they don't have this, they don't have that....I guess it will just have to make do with do with Jesus and the Word.

[_sleepyhead]

Hello Albion,

>>>I think you miss an essential, over riding element of the role of the prophet which was to be God's mouthpiece in preparing his people for the first coming of Christ.<<<

While there are some prophecies in the Old Testament that are relevant to Christianity (or at least interpreted by Christianity as being relevant), I don't think you can say that about the whole.

>>>At that point, the "law AND the prophets" was fulfilled. <<<

The above is mostly drawn from a verse in Matthew 5 ie "I have not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it". This is actually the beginning of a sermon which continues on to Chapters 6 and 7. For a more complete understanding of what Jesus meant by this comment one should read the entire sermon.

>>>Just as the law holds no power over believers so prophets in the sense of Old Testament prophets was fulfilled, done away with.<<<

The arc of the covenant provided a mixed blessing and cursing. The Israelites had to watch there P's and Q's and many of them died both in the wilderness and later when they became a nation because of there vicinity to the arc. When the Philistines captured the arc God began dealing with them by destroying there God and giving them boils. The benefit of the arc was that it enabled individuals who so desired to obtain God's word. It is more difficult to obtain God's word now.

[_Albion]

I would disagree with you. The overall theme of the entire Old Testament is God's dealing with Israel to prepare them to be a godly people. Everything within the Old Testament is a precursor to the coming of Christ, including the Law and the prophets...."But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness comes from God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believed. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus..." Romans 4: 21-24. The testimony of the Law and Old Testament prophets will remain but what the Law and those prophets could not do, make man righteous, Christ did through his atonement at Calvary for all who believe on his name. "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand." Romans5:1-2

Prophets are intertwined with the Law and have been fulfilled, taken into the New Covenant that God makes with believers by his grace because of their faith in Jesus. Why would a believer possibly want a prophet as an intermediary when the believer has Jesus and everything necessary for salvation has been accomplished in and through Him?

I'm not sure just what your reference to the Arc has to do with anything but I would recommend an indepth reading of Romans to understand the sufficiency of Christ in all things.

[_LittleNipper]

The reality is that every Christian is a priest. The Christian's body becomes the temple of the Lord (indwelled by the Holy Spirit). There is no need for stone temples made by the hands of men.

New International Version (©1984)
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

New Living Translation (©2007)
But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God's very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

English Standard Version (©2001)
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

International Standard Version (©2008)
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people to be his very own and to proclaim the wonderful deeds of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But you are a chosen race who serve as Priests for The Kingdom, a holy people, a redeemed assembly; you should proclaim the praises of him who called you from darkness into his excellent light.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
However, you are chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, people who belong to God. You were chosen to tell about the excellent qualities of God, who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

American King James Version
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light;

American Standard Version
But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Douay-Rheims Bible
But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Darby Bible Translation
But ye are a chosen race, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a people for a possession, that ye might set forth the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness to his wonderful light;

English Revised Version
But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may shew forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Webster's Bible Translation
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Weymouth New Testament
But you are a chosen race, a priesthood of kingly lineage, a holy nation, a people belonging specially to God, that you may make known the perfections of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvellous light.

World English Bible
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellence of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Young's Literal Translation
and ye are a choice race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired, that the excellences ye may shew forth of Him who out of darkness did call you to His wondrous light;

New International Version (©1984)
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

New Living Translation (©2007)
And you are living stones that God is building into his spiritual temple. What's more, you are his holy priests. Through the mediation of Jesus Christ, you offer spiritual sacrifices that please God.

English Standard Version (©2001)
you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

International Standard Version (©2008)
you, too, as living stones, are building yourselves up into a spiritual house and a holy priesthood, so that you may offer spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus, the Messiah.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And you also, as living stones, be built up and become spiritual temples and holy Priests to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable before God by Yeshua The Messiah.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
You come to him as living stones, a spiritual house that is being built into a holy priesthood. So offer spiritual sacrifices that God accepts through Jesus Christ.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
You also, as living stones, are built up into a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

American King James Version
You also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

American Standard Version
ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Darby Bible Translation
yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

English Revised Version
ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Webster's Bible Translation
Ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Weymouth New Testament
And be yourselves also like living stones that are being built up into a spiritual house, to become a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

World English Bible
You also, as living stones, are built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Young's Literal Translation
and ye yourselves, as living stones, are built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

[_Albion]

You will get no debate from me, Little Nipper, but sadly Mormons will not accept any of these scriptures as being less than meaning ordination to the priesthood of Melchizedec despite the fact that only Jesus is worthy to hold such a priesthood, as made clear in scripture, and the added fact that there is no mention of such ordination anywhere in scripture. Coupled with denigrating Jesus by assuming something rightfully only his, they additionally claim the Levitical Priesthood (called the Aaronic Priesthood within Mormonism) which scripture clearly defines as being reserved only for those born of the tribe of Levi.

[_Franktalk]

Hello Franktalk,

I understood your point. I see no need to read into the narrative what you are reading into it.

As a Catholic, I am not sola scriptura. :-) But neither do I believe that every speculation under the sun is probable.

Both Jews and Catholics have Sacred Tradition, that is, a belief that what God has revealed is found in written scripture, and in the faith that is handed on. Oral tradition being a part of Tradition, but not its entirety. Liturgy is also a major part of the faith handed on. The Feast of the Passover is one such liturgy. Both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are inspired of the Holy Spirit.

Hope that helps clarify my position and why I pointed out the Sacred Traditions of the Jewish Passover feast, which Jesus, as a devout Jew, would have participated in.

You will be held to your beliefs just as I am. Our righteousness is counted based on what we believe not what is ultimately true. Many have a hard time with this.

I tend to believe that most of the oral tradition is not inspired. That does not mean I disrespect it. Just the opposite. Unless an oral tradition tries to turn over a witnessed truth I embrace tradition. Christ clearly pointed out how the Pharisees added to the teachings of Moses in error. But He clearly said to many do as they teach not as they do.

As for the sacrament I see it in two sections. One in which Christ as God performed the miracle of the atonement as represented by His blood and His flesh. This He could do and no other. The act of offering bread and wine/water as representative of His act we can do. There is no miracle of itself in the sacrament. You may feel differently and that is fine with me. We are to remember the miracle.

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and broke it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

The act is for remembrance of His act. We are to focus on His act. The breaking of the bread and the drinking of the wine is not a miracle. We pray that in eating the bread and drinking the wine we receive His miracle from the cross. We do not bring the cross to the cup or to the bread. The bread and wine are Holy only in the remembrance. To make the bread or wine more than bread or wine makes it some kind of idol or graven image. This I will not do.

Let me ask you. At the supper of the Lamb will there be blood in the cup or wine? I think wine.

[_Samantabhadra]

The bread and wine are Holy only in the remembrance. To make the bread or wine more than bread or wine makes it some kind of idol or graven image. This I will not do.

Your perspective is understandable, but only makes sense against the backdrop of post-Renaissance rationalism. From the earliest days of the Apostolic tradition it was understood that the divine Person of Jesus Christ is really and truly present in the bread and wine. To reject this is to reject the authority of the Apostles and thus to reject Christ.

[_sleepyhead]

Hello Albion and little nipper,

Little nipper. Is there a link that you go to to obtain all the various translations of a Bible verse. I used to know one and then I redid my computer and I couldn;t find it again.
Albian. In the following I'm not claiming that either conservative or liberal is good or bad. For conservative I'm using this definition:
disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.
For liberal I'm using this definition:
favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

I am a conservative in the sense that I believe in the earliest writings of the faith (which would be Genesis through Deuteronomy), and that all other writings are based on there conformity to these early writings. You appear to be liberal in the sense that you allow the New Testament to interpret what is taught in the Old Testament. Mormons are liberal in the sense that they allow there GA's to interpret what is taught in both the New Testament and Old Testament. In the early part of the Book of Mormon in Lehi's dream and its later interpretation, people had a grasp of the rod of iron (the word of God), (which for them would have been Genesis through deuteronomy), but a mist rose up, later teaching, and caused them to let go of the iron rod, and they wandered off and were lost. (not that theres anything wrong with that.) For that reason it really isn't a concern for me how Romans interprets the Old Testament unless it provides adequate support for its claims.

[_Albion]

So then you would reject Jesus as the Christ (Messiah) and any teaching about him in the New Testament? I note that you use Book of Mormon illustrations in you post. From my perspective the Book of Mormon is irrelevant in any discussion of the Gospel...but then perhaps since your belief system is founded on the first books of the Bible you reject the whole idea of a Gospel...the good news of Christ's death and resurrection on behalf of sinners? If you are not claiming to be a Christian in any sense of the word then perhaps we are discussing at cross purposes.

[_Franktalk]

Your perspective is understandable, but only makes sense against the backdrop of post-Renaissance rationalism. From the earliest days of the Apostolic tradition it was understood that the divine Person of Jesus Christ is really and truly present in the bread and wine. To reject this is to reject the authority of the Apostles and thus to reject Christ.

I don't think I said enough about this subject. It is my belief that Christ is everywhere in the creation and can be found anywhere we look. I believe that the creation in total is for us to look at and then look past it to the power of God. I feel the cup is no different. If we in our heart take the bread and accept that it represents Christ body then we have done what He asked us to do. We remember Him on the cross and we accept His sacrifice. That is what makes the bread special. It is our remembrance of His act. When I pray I don't go to some special place. When I break bread anywhere I remember Christ. To limit Christ to a cup once a week is an error. We do it as a formal rite but the act of remembrance can be done anytime and anywhere. When I thank God for a meal which I am about to eat then God is with me and in the meal. When I thank God for a view of nature then God is in the scene before me. When I remember Christ and bless bread and wine then Christ is there in the bread and wine. I am sorry if my words did not convey my true beliefs.