No three degrees of Glory in 1 Cor 15

[_Albion]

Actually, you can't have it both ways. It can't be Paradise meaning the "spirit world" in one instance (the story in Luke) and the third heaven (or Paradise) in the scripture you use to show that Paul, or the man in his story, was caught up to the third heaven which you claim is the Celestial Kingdom.

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. And I know that this man --whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows -- was caught up to Paradise."

Which one is it... the "spirit world" or the Celestial Kingdom?

[_Tobin]

Actually, you can't have it both ways. It can't be Paradise meaning the "spirit world" in one instance (the story in Luke) and the third heaven (or Paradise) in the scripture you use to show that Paul, or the man in his story, was caught up to the third heaven which you claim is the Celestial Kingdom.

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. And I know that this man --whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows -- was caught up to Paradise."

Which one is it... the "spirit world" or the Celestial Kingdom?

You are confused. They are both Paradise. Pardise is simply the abode of the righteous. Paradise is often juxtaposed against Hell, the abode of the unrighteous, in the scriptures. One instance refers to the abode of the righteous before they receive judgement (the case of the thief), the other is the abode of the righteous in Heaven.

[_Albion]

Sounds to me like you do want it both ways. On the one hand, you are saying it doesn't matter what Jesus told the thief or whether or not he had followed procedure as Mormonism defines it because Paradise only means the "spirit world" (that place he waits while someone does his necessary ordinances vicariously) and in the other, Paradise is clearly defined as the same as the third Heaven (in Mormon terms the Celestial Kingdom). Which one is it? Is the spirit world the same as the Celestial Kingdom or not? You're right, I am confused but only at what you're trying to say.

So, was the thief promised the Celestial Kingdom or was he promised something lesser by Mormon definitions?

[_Tobin]

Sounds to me like you do want it both ways. On the one hand, you are saying it doesn't matter what Jesus told the thief or whether or not he had followed procedure as Mormonism defines it because Paradise only means the "spirit world" (that place he waits while someone does his necessary ordinances vicariously) and in the other, Paradise is clearly defined as the same as the third Heaven (in Mormon terms the Celestial Kingdom). Which one is it? Is the spirit world the same as the Celestial Kingdom or not? You're right, I am confused but only at what you're trying to say.

So, was the thief promised the Celestial Kingdom or was he promised something lesser by Mormon definitions?

Clearly you didn't read what I wrote. Please respond to that. It isn't an either-or type of thing. Pardise has multiple uses and you are trying to impose just one use in two different instances to cause a problem that doesn't exist. This is nothing more than your attempts at confusing the issue (either due to your own ignorance or deliberately).

[_Albion]

Please provide scriptural evidence that Paradise has multiple uses. I am not trying to cause any problem only to understand how you can switch definitions in this way. Why is the Paradise promised by Jesus not the Celestial Kingdom that you claim it was when Paul used the word? In Mormon theology is the spirit world not the place where people go to await all the requirements necessary for advancement to the Celestial Kingdom? Or is Paradise not the Celestial Kingdom as Mormonism defines Paul's words?

[_LittleNipper]

One thing we can be clear from the passage in Luke 23:43
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.
Today? Today you will be with Me in paradise? How is that so? for "today" Christ did not go to paradise...for "today" the only place Christ went was to the grave....is the grave paradise?

Jesus went to hell

However in acts 2:

25 “King David quoted Jesus as saying:
‘I know the Lord is always with me. He is helping me. God’s mighty power supports me.
26 ’No wonder my heart is filled with joy and my tongue shouts his praises! For I know all will be well with me in death—
27 ’You will not leave my soul in hell or let the body of your Holy Son decay.
28 ’You will give me back my life and give me wonderful joy in your presence.’
29 “Dear brothers, think! David wasn’t referring to himself when he spoke these words I have quoted, for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us. 30 But he was a prophet, and knew God had promised with an unbreakable oath that one of David’s own descendants would be the Messiah and£ sit on David’s throne. 31 David was looking far into the future and predicting the Messiah’s resurrection, and saying that the Messiah’s soul would not be left in hell and his body would not decay. 32 He was speaking of Jesus, and we all are witnesses that Jesus rose from the dead.
33 “And now he sits on the throne of highest honor in heaven, next to God. And just as promised, the Father gave him the authority to send the Holy Spirit—with the results you are seeing and hearing today.
34 “No, David was not speaking of himself in these words of his I have quoted, for he never ascended into the skies. Moreover, he further stated, ‘God spoke to my Lord, the Messiah, and said to him, Sit here in honor beside me 35until I bring your enemies into complete subjection.’

Acts 13:34 “For God had promised to bring him back to life again, no more to die. This is stated in the Scripture that says, ‘I will do for you the wonderful thing I promised David.’ 35 In another Psalm he explained more fully, saying, ‘God will not let his Holy One decay.’ 36 This was not a reference to David, for after David had served his generation according to the will of God, he died and was buried, and his body decayed. 37 No, it was a reference to another—someone God brought back to life, whose body was not touched at all by the ravages of death.

In Mormon Doctrine we have the answer that it wasn't David in Psa 16:8 under Corruption Corruption is also used to signify the decay and change that will take place after death.[u] Thus David recorded the Lord's promise that he would not suffer his Holy One to see corruption [/u](Ps. 16:10), a promise amply fulfilled in Christ as both Peter (Acts 2:27) and Paul (Acts 13:30-37) testified.

and We know the thief when to the Third heaven where God dwells the scriptures are certain along with Mormon Doctrine

I am going to tell you an evangelical "theory" concerning Paradise. For the sake of time I am not going to display a lot of verses; however, if anyone is interested I will see what I can do in that regard. The thought is that Paradise is the very same place as "Abraham's bosom." Paradise/Abraham's bosom was the location where pre-resurection saints would go when they died. The thought is that they could not go directly to be with God because they (thought trusting in God for their salvation) were still under the shadow of death until that time when Jesus paid the penality for past, present, and future sin of all believers on the cross.
Now, it gets rather involved, in that it is also believed that during this interval, non-righteous dead went to hell, but that these two places were in close proximity to each other. This of course relates to the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Though Paradise was a beautiful place it was not the final abode where the dead saints would go. Hell already existed for the fallen angels. Both these places existed side by side. When Jesus died on the cross, it is believed, He also went to Paradise to free the souls of the righteous dead (set the captives free) and also preach judgement to those in hell. The dead saints in Paradise rose towards heaven and were likely the ones seen as the "ghosts" walking in Jerusalem. Paradise was consumed as hell expanded(as it had no more purpose). Believing this or not has no bearing on one's salvation. It is a "idea" that seems to fit the Bible and explains (much like the trinity) something that we are not given a full knowlege of...

[_Tobin]

Please provide scriptural evidence that Paradise has multiple uses. I am not trying to cause any problem only to understand how you can switch definitions in this way. Why is the Paradise promised by Jesus not the Celestial Kingdom that you claim it was when Paul used the word? In Mormon theology is the spirit world not the place where people go to await all the requirements necessary for advancement to the Celestial Kingdom? Or is Paradise not the Celestial Kingdom as Mormonism defines Paul's words?

Paradise is used differently in different places. It is literally an abode (a resting place) for the righteous.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/paradise

In particular,

2. Christianity
a. The abode of righteous souls after death; heaven.
b. An intermediate resting place for righteous souls awaiting the Resurrection.

This isn't a difficult concept. You are creating a non-sense isusue out of thin air.

[_Mittens]

One thing we can be clear from the passage in Luke 23:43
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.
Today? Today you will be with Me in paradise? How is that so? for "today" Christ did not go to paradise...for "today" the only place Christ went was to the grave....is the grave paradise?

Jesus went to hell

However in acts 2:

25 “King David quoted Jesus as saying:
‘I know the Lord is always with me. He is helping me. God’s mighty power supports me.
26 ’No wonder my heart is filled with joy and my tongue shouts his praises! For I know all will be well with me in death—
27 ’You will not leave my soul in hell or let the body of your Holy Son decay.
28 ’You will give me back my life and give me wonderful joy in your presence.’
29 “Dear brothers, think! David wasn’t referring to himself when he spoke these words I have quoted, for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us. 30 But he was a prophet, and knew God had promised with an unbreakable oath that one of David’s own descendants would be the Messiah and£ sit on David’s throne. 31 David was looking far into the future and predicting the Messiah’s resurrection, and saying that the Messiah’s soul would not be left in hell and his body would not decay. 32 He was speaking of Jesus, and we all are witnesses that Jesus rose from the dead.
33 “And now he sits on the throne of highest honor in heaven, next to God. And just as promised, the Father gave him the authority to send the Holy Spirit—with the results you are seeing and hearing today.
34 “No, David was not speaking of himself in these words of his I have quoted, for he never ascended into the skies. Moreover, he further stated, ‘God spoke to my Lord, the Messiah, and said to him, Sit here in honor beside me 35until I bring your enemies into complete subjection.’

Acts 13:34 “For God had promised to bring him back to life again, no more to die. This is stated in the Scripture that says, ‘I will do for you the wonderful thing I promised David.’ 35 In another Psalm he explained more fully, saying, ‘God will not let his Holy One decay.’ 36 This was not a reference to David, for after David had served his generation according to the will of God, he died and was buried, and his body decayed. 37 No, it was a reference to another—someone God brought back to life, whose body was not touched at all by the ravages of death.

In Mormon Doctrine we have the answer that it wasn't David in Psa 16:8 under Corruption Corruption is also used to signify the decay and change that will take place after death.[u] Thus David recorded the Lord's promise that he would not suffer his Holy One to see corruption [/u](Ps. 16:10), a promise amply fulfilled in Christ as both Peter (Acts 2:27) and Paul (Acts 13:30-37) testified.

and We know the thief when to the Third heaven where God dwells the scriptures are certain along with Mormon Doctrine

I am going to tell you an evangelical "theory" concerning Paradise. For the sake of time I am not going to display a lot of verses; however, if anyone is interested I will see what I can do in that regard. The thought is that Paradise is the very same place as "Abraham's bosom." Paradise/Abraham's bosom was the location where pre-resurection saints would go when they died. The thought is that they could not go directly to be with God because they (thought trusting in God for their salvation) were still under the shadow of death until that time when Jesus paid the penality for past, present, and future sin of all believers on the cross.
Now, it gets rather involved, in that it is also believed that during this interval, non-righteous dead went to hell, but that these two places were in close proximity to each other. This of course relates to the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Though Paradise was a beautiful place it was not the final abode where the dead saints would go. Hell already existed for the fallen angels. Both these places existed side by side. When Jesus died on the cross, it is believed, He also went to Paradise to free the souls of the righteous dead (set the captives free) and also preach judgement to those in hell. The dead saints in Paradise rose towards heaven and were likely the ones seen as the "ghosts" walking in Jerusalem. Paradise was consumed as hell expanded(as it had no more purpose). Believing this or not has no bearing on one's salvation. It is a "idea" that seems to fit the Bible and explains (much like the trinity) something that we are not given a full knowlege of...

Sorry Jesus went to hell those three days one of my favorite songs points this out was song at my Mothers funeral in 1970


http://youtu.be/-qyvdHXoKVs

[_Albion]

I don't think so, Tobin. Mormons are adjusting the Bible to fit their version. At this point in the reference Jesus has not been resurrected yet because the atonement is not complete so clearly he cannot be resurrected fully to heaven before the act is complete. Even using the definition you gave for the Christian belief the operative word is righteous in both cases. The thief is qualified for heaven through righteousness given him in his confession of faith...that righteousness qualifies him for heaven the moment resurrection become available. Mormons want the word to mean the Celestial Kingdom when it suits their theology but something quite different when it suits their theology otherwise. Jesus promised the thief full and complete salvation in heaven and I have no doubt that is what he received because of his faith.

[_Tobin]

I don't think so, Tobin. Mormons are adjusting the Bible to fit their version. At this point in the reference Jesus has not been resurrected yet because the atonement is not complete so clearly he cannot be resurrected fully to heaven before the act is complete. Even using the definition you gave for the Christian belief the operative word is righteous in both cases. The thief is qualified for heaven through righteousness given him in his confession of faith...that righteousness qualifies him for heaven the moment resurrection become available. Mormons want the word to mean the Celestial Kingdom when it suits their theology but something quite different when it suits their theology otherwise. Jesus promised the thief full and complete salvation in heaven and I have no doubt that is what he received because of his faith.

Again, the thief is going to paradise in the spirit world. Of course he isn't going to be resurrected and go to heaven. And there is no adjustment required to the Bible to understand what is being talked about. Just an understanding of what is meant by Paradise is sufficient.