Is God changing?

[_Tobin]

Jo,

What is an eternal being in your mind? Are we fully formed eternal beings like God or nascent (children or offspring)? I'd be interested in which you think we are. I think if we are the latter, then it would seem that we wouldn't know everything. After all, is a child nearly as knowledgeable as their parents?

An eternal being has always existed. While our mortal brains are limited in comprehending, we just can't get our heads wrapped around what it looks like to have always been. It just doesn't make sense that we only become eternal AFTER death..at which time we enter eternity. We are either eternal or not.

Yes, we are fully formed eternal beings..."God", if you will;

I'll stop you right there. I really don't get it. You claim we are already God, but chose to be mortal. But we've supposedly had God among us in the form of Jesus Christ and I certainly can't perform the magic tricks he could. Can you? Or don't you believe Jesus Christ was who he claimed to be? And why do the books of myths like the Bible and Book of Mormon refer to us as children of God if we are already God?

Now, we've discussed before that we are mortal to divert our boredom at knowing everything and experience new things, but it seems God the Father doesn't do this? Why? And why is the Holy Ghost a spirit still and not mortal to divert his boredom?

I'm sorry to ask all these questions, but when I try to think about your claims - it seems like you only have some very confused, contradictory, and illogical beliefs. I believe you have no better idea of whether or not we've existed before than anyone else. And I believe you have no idea if we'll continue to exist either. I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but I really don't think you know anything more than anyone else. You would like to believe you are eternal, but that is only wishful thinking and you have no more insight into our existence than that.

[_jo1952]

I'll stop you right there. I really don't get it. You claim we are already God, but chose to be mortal. But we've supposedly had God among us in the form of Jesus Christ and I certainly can't perform the magic tricks he could. Can you? Or don't you believe Jesus Christ was who he claimed to be? And why do the books of myths like the Bible and Book of Mormon refer to us as children of God if we are already God?

It is mankind that created the concept of "god"/"satan", and religion. So, in order to communicate with others about these things, these are the words used. I believe in "Christ" as well...though this is yet another religious term. I think He is better understood in the manner Isaiah (a True Messenger) spoke of Him. Also, "Christ" (also a True Messenger; but with a unique role)--in the BoM--told the people to study the words of Isaiah. He was trying to get the people to "see" things other than through the eyes of their religious beliefs and the traditions of their fathers....because seeing, they could not see, etc. In accordance with free will, even Christ couldn't talk plainly....it would have interfered with the people's/the avatar's desire to live religion. That is the way of all True Messengers....to try to provide some Real Truth (In other words, clues as to what's really going on here in mortality) for those of us who desire it (again, in accordance with our own free will, because we desire it, we get it). But we aren't "required" to know or find it. Mortality is just a phase of our eternal existence while we are inside of a world/estate we created to be able to experience newness. Those worlds have phases...time limits...during which goals have been pre-set for newly created avatars.

I don't think Christ used magic. If He DID perform "miracles", He was merely manifesting His greater knowledge. To the people back then, they would have appeared to be magic. Our technology today would have looked like magic not too long ago. I no longer believe anything magical or spiritual is taking place.


I think we are getting close to the end of experiencing mortality without the plainness of Real Truth; and that our "Christ" will be returning to set-up the government predicted by Isaiah. by the way, once that government is set-up, THAT is when the remaining "two-thirds of the Hosts of Heaven" will start participating inside of mortality.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

3 Nephi 23:1 And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.

Now, we've discussed before that we are mortal to divert our boredom at knowing everything and experience new things, but it seems God the Father doesn't do this? Why? And why is the Holy Ghost a spirit still and not mortal to divert his boredom?

"God", "Father", "Holy Ghost"....these are all religious terms. We've already discussed "God" and "Father". As far as "Holy Ghost"....there is no such thing. However, True Messengers will still use those words when trying to speak unplainly to religious people. It's a term that religious people came up with. So, in order to not interfere with their free will desire to believe in a "Holy Ghost", a True Messenger will use those words to try to teach the people (but the TM generally speaks in parables; i.e., without plainness/hard to understand). Religious people will always see and hear through the eyes and ears of their belief systems. They are the ones who are blind and deaf to what TMs try to teach. Because the words of TMs challenge their belief systems, they usually wind up killing TMs.

I'm sorry to ask all these questions, but when I try to think about your claims - it seems like you only have some very confused, contradictory, and illogical beliefs. I believe you have no better idea of whether or not we've existed before than anyone else. And I believe you have no idea if we'll continue to exist either. I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but I really don't think you know anything more than anyone else. You would like to believe you are eternal, but that is only wishful thinking and you have no more insight into our existence than that.

I have already admitted on many occasions that inside of mortality (at least at this time), it is not possible to KNOW for a certainty...without the shadow of a doubt...what is going on here. Of course it's going to sound complex. How else can we have created new worlds and set-up a foundation for us to be able to experience newness? If it weren't complex (at least from the stand point of the avatar's mind), then the purpose for creating new worlds would become frustrated.

Yes, I want to believe that I am eternal. I reject the ideas that man has come up with in their efforts of explaining where the world came from. Their "truth" keeps changing. Also, the prophecies (....sigh) outlined in the Book of Mormon are coming to pass.

Ether 4:14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.

15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

16 And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. Remember, when ye see these things, ye shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed.

17 Therefore, when ye shall receive this record ye may know that the work of the Father has commenced upon all the face of the land.

Recap of my experience in mortality this time so far: Raised Lutheran, converted to LDS, I've been seeking for "truth" about "God" since I was a little girl. Heavily involved in religious apologetics for years. Researched and studied religious histories. Spent un-numbered hours/days/weeks/years if those moments were added up on bended knee pleading, weeping, in earnest prayer.....serving in Church callings, doing genealogy work, doing Temple work, etc. Finally, in my pleading I also actually gave up everything the world had ever taught me about religion. That is when, in religious terms, the best way to describe what started to happen was that "the heavens opened" up to my mind. Without realizing it, I had followed the prescription: "with a broken heart and a contrite spirit". By letting go of the world (in religious terms), I made room in my mind for other thoughts to enter. Giving up what I had been taught was not easy to do....I was very afraid of allowing myself to think outside of the box. After all, I had been taught about satan and hell. I thought that if I dared to believe anything other than what I had been taught, that this would give satan the opportunity to take me over.

Suffice to say, I no longer believe that anyone must follow...or even find..."God", or "Christ", or believe in any particular belief system. I've been freed from "sin". I believe Christ; and what He taught in parables now seems plain to me. He taught us that if we believed Him and if we came to Him (lived the gospel message), that we could "know" the Father. So, the opposite of that is, if we don't believe Him, and if we don't come to Him (don't live the gospel message), then we won't "know" the Father. In other words, we will reject the message of who the Father is whenever someone tries to tell us who the Father is (including when Christ tried to tell us). And that's okay. We are all right where we need to be. Outside of mortality, we are equals ("God" is no respecter of persons...all are alike unto "God"). Religion divides us; but we are here to experience opposition to everything that we are...and to how things really are...outside of mortality. Thus, no matter what, it is all good.

[_Franktalk]

How do you know we've ever been the heaven before? I don't remember it. Do you remember it? How do you know we use mortal bodies to escape heaven and even if we do, why? And why be resurrected at all? It would seem to be pointless if as you claim we relive lives (forgeting the lives before) to remain happy since eternal beings know everything?

And I'm not trying to antagonize you Franktalk. I'm just trying to get you to think about and question what you think you know. My view is at this point in our development, we really have NO IDEA what happened before this life. And People that claim they do are lying. And we have NO IDEA what, or if it will happen after this life. All I can believe is we'll find out if we continue to exist after we die. I think having preconceptions about it is silly.

That is a valid question. Just what makes me think there is more than my senses can tell me?

It comes down to choice. Do I accept that all life came about due to an accident of nature or do I accept that life came about because an intellect planted seeds of organic design? Do I believe that all life is an accident or it has a purpose? I choose to accept that all life has a purpose. In my study of molecular biology I found that life is just too complicated to have self organized due to some accidents of chemical bonding or an imperfect mutation process. As sure as I can be I know that life did not make itself. I spent years coming to this conclusion. So I concluded that life has a purpose and some unseen intellect had a role in the creation of organic life. Then I had to ponder exactly what this intellect would be like and to ponder the purpose of life.

I can continue to describe my path to where I am now. But with this foundation you can see how I was sorting out man's knowledge to find answers. Looking for clues to fill in the blanks. If you feel there is no purpose and you believe the lie that life self organized then we should stop our chat. Or discuss purpose or self organized life.

[_MetalSlasher]

God is not changing. Humanity is changing.

[_Tobin]

God is not changing. Humanity is changing.

God is not purple. Humanity is purple.

See. I can make meaningless statements too.

[_Tobin]

How do you know we've ever been the heaven before? I don't remember it. Do you remember it? How do you know we use mortal bodies to escape heaven and even if we do, why? And why be resurrected at all? It would seem to be pointless if as you claim we relive lives (forgeting the lives before) to remain happy since eternal beings know everything?

And I'm not trying to antagonize you Franktalk. I'm just trying to get you to think about and question what you think you know. My view is at this point in our development, we really have NO IDEA what happened before this life. And People that claim they do are lying. And we have NO IDEA what, or if it will happen after this life. All I can believe is we'll find out if we continue to exist after we die. I think having preconceptions about it is silly.

That is a valid question. Just what makes me think there is more than my senses can tell me?

It comes down to choice. Do I accept that all life came about due to an accident of nature or do I accept that life came about because an intellect planted seeds of organic design? Do I believe that all life is an accident or it has a purpose? I choose to accept that all life has a purpose. In my study of molecular biology I found that life is just too complicated to have self organized due to some accidents of chemical bonding or an imperfect mutation process. As sure as I can be I know that life did not make itself. I spent years coming to this conclusion. So I concluded that life has a purpose and some unseen intellect had a role in the creation of organic life. Then I had to ponder exactly what this intellect would be like and to ponder the purpose of life.

So you've simply decided inventing a demented God (including all of us) amusing themselves by being mortals is superior to the simpler idea that the universe (and all we see) just naturally arose. That is a terrible rationale for believing what you do. I hope you realize that.

I can continue to describe my path to where I am now. But with this foundation you can see how I was sorting out man's knowledge to find answers. Looking for clues to fill in the blanks. If you feel there is no purpose and you believe the lie that life self organized then we should stop our chat. Or discuss purpose or self organized life.

I think you don't understand my position. I think there are purposes to life, but they come from nature and not some made-up demented God that amuses themselves by playing with us. I hope you understand that the natural structures that exist in the universe are more than adequate to create everything we see today. God isn't necessary at all. I hate to say this, but God is only necessary if you don't understand science and what nature is doing. It is a primitive explanation for the world from when our ancestors were frightened of and didn't understand lightning and thunderstorms and concluded God must be throwing lightning bolts. The God you've invented is simply unneeded (and doesn't exist) because we have rational explanations for these phenomena now and how we got here (and why we exist).

[_jo1952]

So you've simply decided inventing a demented God (including all of us) amusing themselves by being mortals is superior to the simpler idea that the universe (and all we see) just naturally arose. That is a terrible rationale for believing what you do. I hope you realize that.

I don't think you've been reading what Franktalk and I have been saying. Neither of us believe in a demented "God". In fact, we don't believe in the "God"/"Gods" created in the minds of religion. We believe that WE are what mankind calls "God"; In other words, we are the creators; we have all knowledge and all intelligence outside of mortality. It is our own avatars participating in the estate of mortality. The real us are remotely viewing what our avatars are doing; and are experiencing newness through them.

[_Tobin]

I don't think you've been reading what Franktalk and I have been saying. Neither of us believe in a demented "God". In fact, we don't believe in the "God"/"Gods" created in the minds of religion. We believe that WE are what mankind calls "God"; In other words, we are the creators; we have all knowledge and all intelligence outside of mortality. It is our own avatars participating in the estate of mortality. The real us are remotely viewing what our avatars are doing; and are experiencing newness through them.

Actually, I think I understand that quite well. What I'm saying is that isn't reasonable in the slightest and there is no credible evidence you (or anyone else) is what you claim.

[_Franktalk]

I think you don't understand my position. I think there are purposes to life, but they come from nature and not some made-up demented God that amuses themselves by playing with us. I hope you understand that the natural structures that exist in the universe are more than adequate to create everything we see today. God isn't necessary at all. I hate to say this, but God is only necessary if you don't understand science and what nature is doing. It is a primitive explanation for the world from when our ancestors were frightened of and didn't understand lightning and thunderstorms and concluded God must be throwing lightning bolts. The God you've invented is simply unneeded (and doesn't exist) because we have rational explanations for these phenomena now and how we got here (and why we exist).

I think I do understand your position. It is one I held for some time before I knew better. It is my belief that our picture of natural processes is in its infancy. Just as man overreaches in all of man's acquired knowledge into theories based on personal desires man has raised himself above the possibility that we are not on top of the intellect ladder. As man's knowledge of natural processes expands I am confident that man will progress toward a better understanding of reality. In time what we think we know today will be swept away and we will again overreach with our desires. This cycle will repeat over and over until a day comes that the volume of data will point to what is actual reality. That day is billions of years into the future. To assume that with our limited knowledge and understanding of nature that we somehow can make grand statements about natures purpose or how the universe was fashioned and predict with certainty what the big picture is, is just nuts. The history of science tells us that we overreach and are wrong 100% of the time. It was Kuhn who saw science for what it is. An organization of man that easily creates a paradigm in which to live. Even if that paradigm is wrong. Then it will fight against new data to keep the old paradigm.

You may not agree with what I wrote. I accept that. Many hold to the notion that what we know today allows us to know everything. My position is that we do not know everything. And I also believe that much of what we think we know is wrong. It is also my position that intelligent beings have been around for eternity. I can not prove that they exist. But it is not likely that we are the first to become self aware.

[_jo1952]

Actually, I think I understand that quite well. What I'm saying is that isn't reasonable in the slightest and there is no credible evidence you (or anyone else) is what you claim.

I believe that what I believe is just as reasonable as what others believe....whether others believe in religion, or in science, or in philosophy when trying to answer the same questions about how we see the world or ourselves. With the advancements in technology...which today seem miraculous over what was believed yesterday, then the answers to those questions keep moving. My beliefs now just take into consideration already advanced answers in terms of thinking way, way outside of the box. (Though maybe not that far...it seems that what mankind dreams about when writing science fiction , often becomes technology we do develop. Dreamers then reach beyond the new technology that finally caught up with previous dreams...and so forth.) As such, I also think/believe that our avatars may eventually catch up with much of the knowledge and intelligence our true selves have always possessed. Surely such a round of being able to exist simultaneously in more than one estate, eternal beings CAN actually solve any problems which arise from boredom. They create circumstances of existence which provide a never ending source of happiness.