The Evidence Thread

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
Post Reply
_hagoth7
_Emeritus
Posts: 946
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:25 am

Re: The Evidence Thread

Post by _hagoth7 »

Quasimodo wrote:I'm easy. The day some lucky archeologist finds the remnants of a massive battle with many thousands of human bones, interspersed with swords, helmets, chariot wheels and horse bones in the Western Hemisphere, I'm calling the missionaries.

That wouldn't just be evidence, that would be proof. So far, we have nothing. Not even one steel sword. Zilch, Nada.

Quasi,

It would still be nothing more than evidence...if it would even be acknowledged as such.

Waiting for such things isn't the wisest approach. It took about 2,000 years to find one of the most famous/pivotal battle sites in history - the battle of Teutoburg Forest. And that 2,000-year gap is only because (i) it was in a boggy remote area (ii) where numerous metal objects were abandoned and (iii) just happened to have survived due to the chemical nature of the bog (iv) the language of the area is still generally understood by some, and (v) the map of Europe has been passed down from generation to generation largely intact. Were it not for those five realities, the site of the battle of Teutoburg Forest may have never been found in our generation, even though Tacitus and others described the event almost two thousand years ago.

For example, unless I've overlooked something, after 2500 years, all that the proposed site for the Battle of Marathon has produced were a surprisingly small number of artifacts.

What makes the two spearheads stand out is that despite an interest in arms and armour from the famous battlefield of Marathon among 19th century travellers and collectors, these are the only weapons of this type known today that are said to come from ‘a tumulus at Marathon’ and thus associated with the battle. Their rarity makes the following discussion all the more interesting, given that in 2010, when this research on the spearheads was conducted, the 2500th anniversary of the famous battle was celebrated.
Again, it was claimed in the 1800's by an apparently-handwritten label that these two spears came from a tumulus in what is believed to be the plain of Marathon.

Also, a single helmet, which may or may not have been from that battle, was also discovered in the 1800's, over 2000, years after the battle. Is the helmet from that specific battle? Who knows.

A burial mound with ca. 200 dead is there, which is presumed by most to be Greek warriors from that battle.

So two spearheads, a helmet, and a burial mound...are all we have from one of the most famous battles in world history. And even though people knew in general where to search, it took over 2000 years to find the artefacts. Keep in mind that 6,000 Persians were also said to have perished at that battle....of which we have zero concrete evidence....after 2500 years of searching.

Wait all you wish...but the level of evidence you *say* you want may not materialize in your lifetime...although there is quite a bit of evidence today. The main problem with waiting for such evidence before believing is that the victor on most ancient/medieval battlefields wouldn't have left swords/shields/spears/arrows/armor for their enemies to scoop up later, but would have instead scooped up those things themselves...leaving no trace for future generations to find.

I suggest instead a humble, prayerful reading of the Book of Mormon.

Otherwise, if you don't learn to follow the Spirit of God in this generation, but instead sit back on your heels waiting for *evidence*, what will you and your descendants do when another revelation rolls forth? Wait another 2,000 years? And so on?
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joseph Smith: "I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I would not have believed it myself."
https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/alm ... ang=eng#20
Red pill: https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/New Testament/acts/ ... ang=eng#10
Blue pill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNOrp_83RU
_Quasimodo
_Emeritus
Posts: 11784
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:11 am

Re: The Evidence Thread

Post by _Quasimodo »

H7,
The battle site of Teutoburg Forest did take a while to find, but there is no doubt that there were Romans in Germany. Roman ruins litter the German countryside.

The same is true of the battle of Marathon. Whatever else, we do know that there were Greeks living in Greece.

There has not been one single object found that might point to a Nephite civilization. Nothing.

I have tried to read the Book of Mormon, but I agree with Mark Twain. It's chloroform in print.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
_Zakuska
_Emeritus
Posts: 215
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Re: The Evidence Thread

Post by _Zakuska »

Quasimodo wrote:
Zakuska wrote:They did find a Roman Sword on Oak island a few weeks back. ;)


Thanks, Zakuska!

I did read that story, but I think I remember that it was the recollection of someone that heard it from someone else. Has the sword actually turned up?

I usually stay on top of any stories related to archeology. I haven't seen it reported in any of the sites that I consider reliable. It would certainly be very big news if it were true.


No they actually have the sword along with several other "roman" artifacts.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/roman-sword-discovered-oak-island-radically-suggests-ancient-mariners-020663

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3364818/Did-ROMANS-discover-America-Sword-Oak-Island-suggests-ancient-mariners-set-foot-New-World-Columbus-according-radical-theory.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xm9od0Y1Uk

I will admit the evidence could go either way on this one. The Mediteranian plants and DNA they found though makes me lean heavily on authentic.

“When you put all these things together and you look at the anomalies, it’s not a coincidence,” Pultizer told the Boston Standard. “The plants, the DNA, the artifacts, the language, the ancient drawings - you have something that deserves to be taken seriously.”
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: The Evidence Thread

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Ummm, what is the provenance of that sword and what has been done to authenticate it?
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Quasimodo
_Emeritus
Posts: 11784
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:11 am

Re: The Evidence Thread

Post by _Quasimodo »

Zakuska wrote:
No they actually have the sword along with several other "roman" artifacts.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/roman-sword-discovered-oak-island-radically-suggests-ancient-mariners-020663

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3364818/Did-ROMANS-discover-America-Sword-Oak-Island-suggests-ancient-mariners-set-foot-New-World-Columbus-according-radical-theory.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xm9od0Y1Uk

I will admit the evidence could go either way on this one. Tlikelyiteranian plants and DNA they found though makes me lean heavily on authentic.

“When you put all these things together and you look at the anomalies, it’s not a coincidence,” Pultizer told the Boston Standard. “The plants, the DNA, the artifacts, the language, the ancient drawings - you have something that deserves to be taken seriously.”


Aaa, Ancient Origins and The Daily Mail are very unreliable sources. They are both a bit like the gossip tabloids you see at supermarket checkout stands.

It seems that the Roman sword in question is most likely a recent copy sold to tourists in Italy. See this:
http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/j-hutton-pulitzer-threatens-consequences-for-using-photo-of-now-almost-certainly-fake-roman-sword

If it had been a real find by real archeologists, it would have made world wide headlines.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: The Evidence Thread

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Checking Hutton out on the Google doesn't inspire much confidence.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Quasimodo
_Emeritus
Posts: 11784
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:11 am

Re: The Evidence Thread

Post by _Quasimodo »

Res Ipsa wrote:Checking Hutton out on the Google doesn't inspire much confidence.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

As every thinking Mormon should know, the world is full of hucksters.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
_Zakuska
_Emeritus
Posts: 215
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Re: The Evidence Thread

Post by _Zakuska »

Heres its providence...

J. Hutton Pulitzer, a historic investigator, claims to have evidence of a Roman sword that was discovered submerged near the island, which is believed to be a Roman shipwreck. He says the ancient weapon is the “smoking gun” to his theory.

“The ceremonial sword came out of that shipwreck,” he said. “It is one incredible Roman artifact.”

He explains that the discovery came about after a father and son were scalloping off Oak Island. The father kept the sword for decades, and passed it along to his wife when he died. It was then passed along to her daughter, who gave it to her husband, who eventually brought it forward to researchers.

Pulitzer says the complex metallic properties of the ancient weapon match those of other ancient Roman artifacts.

“The shipwreck is still there and has not been worked,” said Pulitzer. “We have scanned it, we know exactly where it lays, but it will be a touchy thing for the Nova Scotia government to allow an archaeological team to survey it. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is Roman.”

He acknowledges that it would be a huge undertaking to re-write history, but that shouldn’t be a deterrent.

“I think anything that challenges history is very risky, very dangerous and extremely political,” he said. “But I think the world has matured and history may force politics to mature.”


https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-b ... 23301.html

I wonder when some one is going to get around to really excavating the shipwreck.

Maybe they'll show it on H2?
_Quasimodo
_Emeritus
Posts: 11784
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:11 am

Re: The Evidence Thread

Post by _Quasimodo »

Zakuska wrote:Heres its providence...

J. Hutton Pulitzer, a historic investigator, claims to have evidence of a Roman sword that was discovered submerged near the island, which is believed to be a Roman shipwreck. He says the ancient weapon is the “smoking gun” to his theory.

“The ceremonial sword came out of that shipwreck,” he said. “It is one incredible Roman artifact.”

He explains that the discovery came about after a father and son were scalloping off Oak Island. The father kept the sword for decades, and passed it along to his wife when he died. It was then passed along to her daughter, who gave it to her husband, who eventually brought it forward to researchers.

Pulitzer says the complex metallic properties of the ancient weapon match those of other ancient Roman artifacts.

“The shipwreck is still there and has not been worked,” said Pulitzer. “We have scanned it, we know exactly where it lays, but it will be a touchy thing for the Nova Scotia government to allow an archaeological team to survey it. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is Roman.”

He acknowledges that it would be a huge undertaking to re-write history, but that shouldn’t be a deterrent.

“I think anything that challenges history is very risky, very dangerous and extremely political,” he said. “But I think the world has matured and history may force politics to mature.”


https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-b ... 23301.html

I wonder when some one is going to get around to really excavating the shipwreck.


If there is a shipwreck. It seems very doubtful right now. He is just another in a long line of Erich von Däniken type people who are more than happy to make a profit from distorting and lying about history.

The board sort of revolves around that.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
_Zakuska
_Emeritus
Posts: 215
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Re: The Evidence Thread

Post by _Zakuska »

Quasimodo wrote:
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-b ... 23301.html

I wonder when some one is going to get around to really excavating the shipwreck.


If there is a shipwreck. It seems very doubtful right now. He is just another in a long line of Erich von Däniken type people who are more than happy to make a profit from distorting and lying about history.

The board sort of revolves around that.


Well with people searching for treasure on that island for over 200 years we would expect these types to crawl out of the woodwork. Like I said... this "evidence" could go either way.

Take it with a huge grain of Salt. Just thought it intresting.
Post Reply