Why Must There Be a God?

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_Franktalk
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Re: Why Must There Be a God?

Post by _Franktalk »

spotlight wrote:
Franktalk wrote:spotlight,
I don't believe in a deterministic mind. Just like the universe there is way more in the mind than can be seen.
Now please explain how a deterministic mind comes up with new ideas? Is there a random idea generator in the brain?


The mind consists at least in part of a neural net. This is what is trained when we learn something new. Like riding a bicycle or driving a car. Once we finish the process the neurons are largely trained and we handle these motor skills subconsciously just fine. That is why we see some people texting while driving etc. Now if your neural net was not deterministic you might end up turning left when you ought to turn right. Would that be good? Nope. So determinism is a necessary characteristic of nature in order to simply be able to learn enough to survive in the first place. It allows predictability.

The mind evolved. It makes models of our surroundings and of ourself within those surroundings. It tests itself against the outcomes and gains experiences over time. New ideas are part and parcel of that capacity to model the world.

If you are serious about the subject matter and not just trolling I would recommend the book "Self Comes to Mind" by Antonio Damasio. It's fairly inexpensive.


You did not answer my question. How does a brain come up with a new idea, one that was not taught to the brain?

Your simplistic responses are rather boring. If you can't bother to actually read the questions please don't respond at all. Then again maybe you have programmed your deterministic brain to only respond to some limited set of stimuli.
_spotlight
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Re: Why Must There Be a God?

Post by _spotlight »

Simplistic explanations? The irony meter just pegged and broke again.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

I thought you would have learned by this late date that a god of the gaps argument is a fallacious argument. The supernatural is not the default position which is established sans a scientific explanation. You have to establish your position with evidence just like in science. Merely spewing a few meaningless sentences made up of undefined terms is not an explanation for anything.

Go back to before you had your first thought. Maybe into the womb. How did your brain come up with its very first thought? Would you recognize that thought now as a valid thought? Probably not. How did the mind do that? Maybe you should go have an in depth conversation with a 2 year old and see what thoughts lurk there. I wonder where those thoughts come from? Certainly not from an immortal (read mature) spirit housed within.

If you go back to my earlier post with the ant colony and how it made a decision as a colony you would realize that it is an explanation by analogy that explains how decisions/choices can be made in a determinate nature. So there is no dichotomy between determinism and choices being made to begin with. This is an unwarranted position held by creationists used to provide a false proof of their favored nonsensical position. Like all nonsense from creationists it is merely asserted. It follows the pattern that creationists favor. Make up a BS law and hope it won't be noticed as BS, then proceed to use it to "prove" something else.

So to proceed, I am not sure there are any "new" ideas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhdUp4JOHwg
https://www.ted.com/talks/kirby_ferguso ... _the_remix

There is the theory of analogy as an explanation for "new" thoughts which makes the most sense to me. (Thoughts are not really new)

We tend to think of inventors as another species—geniuses—who have sudden flashes of insight. I can’t think of a single instance when a light bulb went off in my head, leading to some killer new idea. Is that because I’m an uncreative dud? Perhaps. Alternatively, it might be because Eureka moments are the stuff of legend. According to historians who specialize in the development of inventions and the thought processes of inventors, innovation is often a slow and iterative process.

And what, exactly, is involved in said process? One decades-old theory says that the crux of creativity lies in making analogies. Yes, just like those SAT questions: Crumb is to bread as…splinter is to wood. Medicine is to illness as… law is to anarchy. Creative people, the theory goes, are constantly connecting old knowledge and experiences to new situations. Edison’s kinetoscope, for instance, owes a lot to analogy.


http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com ... come-from/

For example by way of analogy new information arises in deterministic nature via evolution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfybuMJVWj0

You see the novel idea of General Relativity did not just jump into the mind of Einstein. It was an incremental process that led there. What's more this "new" thought by Einstein cannot be explained via revelation from god, at least in your case, because you reject the theory of GR. So where did it come from according to you? Perhaps the "dibil" made him think it?
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Franktalk
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Re: Why Must There Be a God?

Post by _Franktalk »

Spotlight,

I can't help but think that you feel we know how life works. Are you really telling me that life evolved by simple mutations? Now if that is true then we should be able to reverse engineer the life we see around us. Has anybody taken a simple life form and reverse engineered it back to the first random organic chain?

Please provide a link of a reverse engineered life form showing all steps. I mean if it happens by accident it should be easy to use your rules and come up with the reverse sequence.

I will get back to new ideas when you give me the breakdown of evolved life.
_spotlight
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Re: Why Must There Be a God?

Post by _spotlight »

Last edited by Guest on Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:23 am, edited 5 times in total.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_spotlight
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Re: Why Must There Be a God?

Post by _spotlight »

Theobald was able to run rigorous statistical analyses on the amino acid sequences in 23 universally conserved proteins across the three major divisions of life (eukaryotes, bacteria and archaea). By plugging these sequences into various relational and evolutionary models, he found that a universal common ancestor is at least 10^2,860 more likely to have produced the modern-day protein sequence variances than even the next most probable scenario (involving multiple separate ancestors).

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -ancestor/
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_LittleNipper
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Re: Why Must There Be a God?

Post by _LittleNipper »

spotlight wrote:Theobald was able to run rigorous statistical analyses on the amino acid sequences in 23 universally conserved proteins across the three major divisions of life (eukaryotes, bacteria and archaea). By plugging these sequences into various relational and evolutionary models, he found that a universal common ancestor is at least 10^2,860 more likely to have produced the modern-day protein sequence variances than even the next most probable scenario (involving multiple separate ancestors).

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -ancestor/


OR there is GOD, who designed everything that exists, ever existed, and will ever exist in the future.
_Franktalk
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Re: Why Must There Be a God?

Post by _Franktalk »



Thanks for the links. The only one I found interesting was this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqPGOhXoprU

I think he is a great scientist. But I think his approach is all wrong. If indeed the earth started with simple life forms in somewhat the same environments we have today then we should see simple replicators in those environments. We don't see them. So early earth must have had a different environment than we see today. That different environment is where he should be looking. He really needs to research ancient geology.

See in my mind life may self organize in simple forms. Even if seeding happened to terraform the earth it would be done so a natural earth would maintain the seeding.

You see I have been studying these advancements for years. I hope to see a major breakthrough some day. But so far hints and guesses but nothing else. Even if a major breakthrough happens I doubt it will effect my belief system. I already believe that seeding took place but is compatible with natural processes.
_spotlight
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Re: Why Must There Be a God?

Post by _spotlight »

LittleNipper wrote:
OR there is GOD, who designed everything that exists, ever existed, and will ever exist in the future.


The God explanation doesn't agree with ERV evidence. It doesn't agree with junk DNA evidence. It doesn't agree with pseudogene evidence or the evidence of LINES and SINES in the DNA. Why for example would a human have genes for egg yolk production that happen to be in the same location as those animals that lay eggs but mutated just enough to no longer be viable?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnfarrell ... 95cd5e7e4a
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2010/PSCF9-10Venema.pdf
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_spotlight
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Re: Why Must There Be a God?

Post by _spotlight »

Franktalk wrote:I think he is a great scientist. But I think his approach is all wrong.


Quick. Send him an email before he wastes any more time.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Franktalk
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Re: Why Must There Be a God?

Post by _Franktalk »

Spotlight,

Do you think that evolution has stopped? If it has not then it should be going on all around us. Life should be self forming as we write these posts. If the conditions on the earth are similar to early earth then we should have around us all stages of evolution. But we don't. Now why is that? It could be it never happened the way many feel it did. Or something has changed on the earth which prevents self forming life now. I am suggesting that scientist concentrate their efforts on past environments. That is all.

If I am wrong on this please explain why we do not have RNA replicators on this planet today.
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