Adam-God Theory

[_BenBritton]

I believe the quote found in the center of all that cut and paste is the clincher in terms of defining Joseph's view on Priesthood authority.

"Adam holds the Keys of the dispensation of the fulness of times, i.e. the dispensation of all the times have been and will be revealed through him from the beginning to Christ and from Christ to the end of all the dispensations that have [been and] are to be revealed . . . . This then is the nature of the priesthood, every man holding the presidency of his dispensation and one man holding the presidency of them all even Adam, and Adam receiving his presidency and authority from Christ, but cannot receive a fulness, untill [sic] Christ shall present the kingdom to the Father which shall be at the end of the last dispensation." (Discourse, October 5, 1840, original ms. in handwriting of Robert B. Thompson, LDS Archives, as cited in Ehat and Cook, op. cit., pp. 39-40; cf. HC, vol. rV, pp. 207-09.)

Joseph Smith preached Christ at the head of the priesthood and Adam next in authority.

[Guest]

I believe the quote found in the center of all that cut and paste is the clincher in terms of defining Joseph's view on Priesthood authority.

"Adam holds the Keys of the dispensation of the fulness of times, i.e. the dispensation of all the times have been and will be revealed through him from the beginning to Christ and from Christ to the end of all the dispensations that have [been and] are to be revealed . . . . This then is the nature of the priesthood, every man holding the presidency of his dispensation and one man holding the presidency of them all even Adam, and Adam receiving his presidency and authority from Christ, but cannot receive a fulness, untill [sic] Christ shall present the kingdom to the Father which shall be at the end of the last dispensation." (Discourse, October 5, 1840, original ms. in handwriting of Robert B. Thompson, LDS Archives, as cited in Ehat and Cook, op. cit., pp. 39-40; cf. HC, vol. rV, pp. 207-09.)

Joseph Smith preached Christ at the head of the priesthood and Adam next in authority.

I believe I already quoted from that discourse and I understand that Buerger is not making the same connection. But Joseph was leading to something and he revealed it just before he died, as William and Wilson Law attest in their Nauvoo Expositor:

Nauvoo Expositor 1:1, Resolution #2, June 7, 1844.

Inasmuch as we have for years borne with the individual follies and iniquities of Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and many of the official characters, and having laboured with them repeatedly with all Christian love, meekness, and humility, yet to no effect, we feel as if forebearance has ceased to be a virtue and hope reformation vain. And inasmuch as they have introduced false and damnable doctrines into the church such as; a plurality of Gods above the God of this universe; and his liability to fall with all of His creations; the plurality of wives; unconditional sealing up.

This is Adam-God and Joseph taught it. See Fred Collier, http://books.google.com/books?id=ppd0lI ... h.&f=false

[_BenBritton]

And perhaps this is the teaching that Buerger suggests that might exist but no one else heard. Whatever it was Brigham's version had Christ as subservient to Adam and that is the crux of the problem.

[_grindael]

And perhaps this is the teaching that Buerger suggests that might exist but no one else heard. Whatever it was Brigham's version had Christ as subservient to Adam and that is the crux of the problem.

So did Joseph, at the end. That is where Brigham Young got it from.

[_BenBritton]

And perhaps this is the teaching that Buerger suggests that might exist but no one else heard. Whatever it was Brigham's version had Christ as subservient to Adam and that is the crux of the problem.

So did Joseph, at the end. That is where Brigham Young got it from.

Now, that is your tale on it.

[Guest]

As far as I iknow, Anson Call is the only one who ever gave an account of Joseph possibly teaching about Adam as a resurrected being who then fell. You notice that Anson does not take the opportunity to say that Joseph equated "the Father" and Adam.

I don't see a pattern where Joseph's new revelations glaringly contradict his past revelations. If Joseph indeed taught something like Anson Call suggests I don't believe he would have taught it in a way that places Adam in a more exalted station than Christ. I believe that to be a glaring flaw in Adam-God as Brigham Young (and Heber C. Kimball) originally taught it.

[_grindael]

As far as I iknow, Anson Call is the only one who ever gave an account of Joseph teaching about Adam as a resurrected being who then fell. "Anson Call:

“On one occasion when Brother Joseph (Smith) was cutting wood, there came to him some brethren and I was among them. We said, 'Brother Joseph, we have some questions to ask, and we will cut your wood while you answer them' 'all right', said Joseph, and we went into the house. Joseph placed his arms across his knees, bent over as if in meditation, and then said, 'now for your questions.'
We said to him; 'what about the creation of the world; how was it inhabited?' Joseph answered and said; 'I will tell you how it was. You and I were in the spirit world at the grand council, and there we were spirits together. We saw and heard that council, and heard them talk of formation of the world and we were among those when the morning stars sang together and when the sons of God shouted for joy. We were among those who had more courage than others and therefore we came down here and took bodies. Some who did not have the courage said, 'Father, we have fought Satan face to face here in the spirit world and helped to cast him down there and now to go down and fight him again face to face, we are afraid we shall never return to thy presence and would prefer a less degree of glory and go some other of your creations where we are sure of -returning.' 'Yes, you and I had more courage and came down here of our own agency and choice.'
Now regarding Adam: He came here from another planet - an immortalized being and brought his wife, eve, with him, and by eating of the fruits of this earth became subject to death and decay and he became of the earth earthly, was made mortal and subject to death. 12th Ch. Rev. 7 and on.”

You notice that Anson does not take the opportunity to say that Joseph equated "the Father" and Adam. I think this is potentially an accurate account of a teaching from Joseph Smith that could have been transformed into Adam-God.

George Laub reports Joseph giving a similar account about other resurrected beings breaking celestial laws in order to come to this earth, "Now the history of Joseph[u]s in Speaking of angels came down and took themselves wives of the daughters of men, See Geneses 6 Chapter 1-2, verses. These ware resurrected Bodies, Violated the Celestial laws." (George gives an April 1843 date, but it's most likely April 1844 considering just before this entry he gives his notes on the King Follett sermon and also marks it April 1843)

I don't see a pattern where Joseph's new revelations glaringly contradict his past revelations. If Joseph indeed taught something like Anson Call suggests I don't believe he would have taught it in a way that places Adam in a more exalted station than Christ. I believe that to be the glaring flaw in Adam-God as Brigham Young (and Heber C. Kimball) originally taught it.

Ben, Anson Call made that statement in 1877, so I don't trust it. But the Expositor statement shows that Joseph was teaching the basic elements of Adam-god. It is not much different than him changing his early doctrine from one God Jesus/Father to two Jesus & Father. It was what he did. But to say there is no evidence that Brigham Young didn't get it from Joseph is wrong. You are quibbling. Joseph taught that Adam held the keys of the Universe, and that places him over Christ, but as TO THIS WORLD, Adam (as he "fell" with his creations") was subservient to Christ as Savior and Firstborn who would inherit it from Adam. This was Joseph's progressive Doctrine of Deity, and Young got it from him, and then claimed he also received a confirmatory "revelation" from God about it.

[_BenBritton]

I think this is the point where we agree to disagree. I see in one of those hundred quotes above that Adam received his authority from Christ, and from another quote that it was in the creation (before the fall). I see your position too. Brigham said Joseph said it, and you also have your own interpretation of our many quotes.

[_iamse7en]

BenBritton, but there are a number of Joseph's statements and concepts that also mesh really well with BY's teachings of the AG Doctrine. You have to look at all the statements of his, instead of cherrypicking and drawing a definitive conclusion.

First, in the creation story, Joseph explained the temple characters this way: The Father (our Father) had acted under the direction of a "head god" and a "council of gods in the creation of the worlds." Once the earth had been organized, "the heads of the Gods appointed one God for us." From the context of Joseph's discussions of this head god, it is apparent that the Prophet clearly considered this being to be a patriarchal superior to the father of Jesus. This meshes perfectly with Brigham's statement (acc. to JFS journal) that Elohim, Yahovah and Michael were father, Son and grandson. The way Mormons understand this heave

Second, most Christians read the Bible quite correctly when they associate the Ancient of Days in Dan 7 with God himself. Joseph was actually making a very controversial statement when he declared that Adam was the Ancient of Days.

Third, look at the implications of these statements from the TPJS:

How have we come at the Priesthood in the last days? It came down, down, in regular succession. Peter, James, and John had it given to them and they gave it to others. Christ is the Great High Priest; Adam next. (HC 3:387-388; this infers: Peter/James/John --> Christ --> Adam)

He begins to become even more explicit than this:

Our Savior speaks of children and says, Their angels always stand before my father. The Father called all spirits before him at the creation of man, and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, and was told to multiply. The keys were first given to him, and by him to others .... The keys have to brought from heaven whenever the Gospel is sent. When they are revealed from heaven, it is by Adams authority. (HC 3:386,387; not only does this infer The Father (of spirits) is Adam, but it explicity says he's THE HEAD and whenever keys are revealed from heaven, it's by HIS authority, not Christ's.)

Commencing with Adam, who was the first man, who is spoken of in Daniel as being the “Ancient of Days,” or in other words, the first and oldest of all, the great, grand progenitor of whom it is said in another place he is Michael, because he was the first and father of all, not only by progeny, but the first to hold the spiritual blessings, to whom was made known the plan of ordinances for the salvation of his posterity unto the end, and to whom Christ was first revealed, and through whom Christ has been revealed from heaven, and will continue to be revealed from henceforth. Adam holds the keys of the dispensation of the fullness of times; i.e., the dispensation of all the times have been and will be revealed through him from the beginning to Christ, and from Christ to the end of all the dispensations that are to be revealed. “Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to his good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself: that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.” (HC 4:207-208)

Clearly, Joseph did not always teach that Adam was subservient to Christ.

Fourth, perhaps an even stronger point, BY explicitly said, on multiple occasions, that Joseph taught this doctrine. Not that Adam was the first man, the great Archangel, or held a special place in priesthood authority, but BY explicitly said Joseph taught the doctrine that Adam was the father of Jesus and the father of our spirits.

Fifth, I don't find it coincidental that many of Joseph's closest insiders were strong advocates of the doctrine. BY, HCK, Eliza Snow, Benjamin Johnson, Helen Mar Whitney (who also explicitly said BY was not the author of the teaching, but that Joseph was), etc. Why would these devoted people of the Prophet, who spent many hours in council with the prophet all endorse such a radically different teaching if Joseph had not taught it himself?

This issue (whether Joseph is the author of the AG doctrine) is more grey than you would like to believe.

[_BenBritton]

We've already discussed most of this throughout the thread. Honestly, I think Buerger does a fantastic job making the argument.

As far as the Adam revealing Christ statement goes, that can also be considered from the context of the Holy Spirit's job to witness of Christ, or ministering angels job to reveal Christ. I find that in every quote we've discussed Joseph implicitly or explicitly places Christ in a higher position of authority.